BBFC meeting 11 Jan

[strictlybroadband]

I had a meeting with the BBFC last week to discuss their plans, and get their views on where the law is going. Note that the BBFC don't set the law, but they need to interpret it. Below are the points that came out of the meeting, most of them known already to some degree. A follow-up meeting will be held next week to look in more detail at how they intend to enforce the use of their online certificates specifically for streaming content.

* The BBFC will shortly (well before the end of this year) be introducing a VoD certificate. This will be issued free of charge to companies that submit content for distribution on DVD/video. It will cover downloads for sure, and possibly streaming. The certificate will allow companies to display BBFC certificate logos on their web sites.

* For companies that do not certificate for the time being, the BBFC will soon be publishing a set of guidelines for adult web companies laying out in more details what they do/don't consider legal content. I see this as a good step forward, as it will allow adult webmasters a clearer view of what may be likely to get them prosecuted under the OPA.

* Certification will for now be voluntary for online use.

* Online certificates will have three parts:
1. A visible logo to display online
2. A video "card" to put at the start of a certificated video
3. A paper certificate to file away

* The BBFC will be making content submission possible online - currently you need to submit on physical media.

* By 2010, the UK will have to sign up to the EU's Television Without Frontiers framework - this means that laws will be introduced to regulate online content - my interpretation of this is that within a couple of years, all adult content online will fall within regulation.

* The BBFC expect that their certification of online content will be a key part in enforcing the new legislation.

* People within the BBFC scheme will be fairly well protected from prosecution - those outside the scheme have no protection.

* In the longer term, the BBFC are investigating content labelling schemes, especially for adult material - this will be technically similar to existing ICRA content labelling.

* The timescales are fluid, but will be forced by the implementation of the EU legislation.

* I raised the specific issue of watersports; many webmasters are unaware that this is illegal in the UK. the BBFC have no role in deciding what is classed as obscene, they are simply guided by the police. I was informed that the police have made prosecutions of web sites for this content - the problem being that webmasters tend to plead guilty to avoid a prison sentence, and so the guideline hasn't been challenged in court.

[Simon]

Do you have a specific contact at the BBFC we can get in touch with?

[strictlybroadband]

Do you have a specific contact at the BBFC we can get in touch with?

I met with the Head of Policy and the Head of Systems. I don't know if they'd appreciate me giving out their contact details and becoming a webmaster enquiry service though... do you have specific questions?

[Simon]

I met with the Head of Policy and the Head of Systems. I don't know if they'd appreciate me giving out their contact details and becoming a webmaster enquiry service though... do you have specific questions?

Yes.

[dvtimes]

Seems rather pointless.

I mean say I have a site bigboobs.com (UK based) and somone has a site bigboobies.com (USA based). What is the point of the uk site having a logo in it. And how will they know what is a brit and non brit site?

I see nothing wrong with saying this site is adult and you must be 18 (as I do), SAo what is the point of sticking a big R18 logo on it????

Basicly pointless, and basicly 99% of amatur sites will not bother as they will not know about it.

And are we saying every single site is going to have a rating?

What will bbc news do, are they going to have a big 18 logo on the site as there nes films will have violense?

No pointless. Very few will not bother.

And what if I move to canada to live, one day my site needs a logo, next it does not.

How rather pointless and silly.

And do we realy want to allow goverment to have any influence on the net unless we are forced to? no.

[dvtimes]

The simple option is pay $10 to your domain regersters to have your details hidden. Then how do they know who owns what site.

At the end of the day if my sites take off, I will be moving to canada. And simply comming to the uk at 6 months each year on holiday (or however long i can stay).

This country seems to enjoy bringing in silly pointless laws then taking all my cash in tax.

Sorry, way too much hassel for me to care about.

[SGS]

If you are making 2, 3 or 4 million a year with your site or program who gives a fuck about the BBFC?

[Simon]

Why bother? Because UK surfers can at times need reassuring that the sites they are joining are legal in the UK. A logo from the BBFC would go a long way to doing this. If you're already shooting UK legal content, then being able to have it referenced as such can only help.

Much as I would like to work without the interference of the worthys its not going to happen, so might as well use them where I can.

[Simon]

If you are making 2, 3 or 4 million a year with your site or program who gives a fuck about the BBFC?

Thats not even a catering budget at Disney or Touchstone. So while they bother, I will too.

We are UK publishers, sooner or later all forms of UK law and regulation will catch up with us, be it VAT, or certification, so the only choice is to deal with it or move.

Hope and hubris are not strategies.

[SGS]

Thats not even a catering budget at Disney or Touchstone. So while they bother, I will too.

We are UK publishers, sooner or later all forms of UK law and regulation will catch up with us, be it VAT, or certification, so the only choice is to deal with it or move.

Hope and hubris are not strategies.

We already have a Spanish company and offices out there.

[gawdi]

Why bother? Because UK surfers can at times need reassuring that the sites they are joining are legal in the UK. A logo from the BBFC would go a long way to doing this. If you're already shooting UK legal content, then being able to have it referenced as such can only help.

I dont think this is the case....... In fact the BBFC logo would put punters off as they'd consider it to be a tame site....

[dvtimes]

Why bother? Because UK surfers can at times need reassuring that the sites they are joining are legal in the UK. A logo from the BBFC would go a long way to doing this. If you're already shooting UK legal content, then being able to have it referenced as such can only help.

Much as I would like to work without the interference of the worthys its not going to happen, so might as well use them where I can.

Do you realy belive that?

Do you think that any surfer in the uk i going to think that.

No one will even think about it.

So if they do not see a big r18, do you think they will not join.

All anyone will do is put on the bottom of there site 'this site is not eu based' then that stuffs it. Much easer than having to reedit all your film, or removing half your content.

If you have the time to reedit all your films then good for you. By the sounds of it, you may even find all your films will not be legit so you may end up dumping it. sod that.

And do you realy think anyone is bothered about buying films that have r18 on them? go down to your local car boot and they will be selling imported pirated films by the handfull.

And what about your american serfers, will they not be put off with a big r18 logo? i mean they may not know what it means.

sorry, i just do not have the time nor do i care.

as i say, its canada for me.

good luck to you lot if you have the time to re-edit your films.

because at the end of the day there will be thousands of uk sites will not bother.

just think about those on such as proadult, most of these are not even on a domain but a subdemain of proadult. hosted outside the eu. what will they do with these sites, as it will be impossible to track down the site owners.

or what about such sites as myspace, or others sites like that where people uipload there films. are you sugesting they will all ad ratings??

of course not.

It reminds me a few years ago where that site/firm tried to get all sites to pay them a fee for using film. some did, but most did not. in the end it fizzeled out.

and thats all this will do. just fizzel out. ok one or two sites may put the effort in. thats fine, while your reediting your films i will be sunbathing.

the net is way too big at the end of the day.

in fact, lets face it, there are plently of uk sites selling porn films that have never been through the film sensers, and do not give a hoot.

[SGS]

I dont think this is the case....... In fact the BBFC logo would put punters off as they'd consider it to be a tame site....

Or think that the site has something to do with a rip-off uk sex shop. lol

[dvtimes]

Thats not even a catering budget at Disney or Touchstone. So while they bother, I will too.

We are UK publishers, sooner or later all forms of UK law and regulation will catch up with us, be it VAT, or certification, so the only choice is to deal with it or move.

Hope and hubris are not strategies.

but thats the point, its simpler tomove and then just take long holidays in the uk.

its not the case uk laws and regulations will catch up with us, but that the oudated laws come up to date.

the reality is, right now, many people are simply ignoring the film sensers. pick up your local paper i bet in the back there will be adverts for home made porn, that will never go though the sensers.

no one gives a hoot.

its like sunday shopping. in the end the supermarkets just ignored the law. in the end they had to change it quick.

[dvtimes]

I dont think this is the case....... In fact the BBFC logo would put punters off as they'd consider it to be a tame site....

thats true.

it would or at least could be a marketing disater.

if you want to do it, fine, as for me, i am not interested.

what if you buy content too? how the hell or you going to get the logo on the front of all your clips without a lot of messing about?

its just nonsense.

some sites have hours and hours of clips. are you realy expecting them to redit all the clips?

what about webcan sites. do you ask the models to hold up a big card with r18 on it??? or will live film be deferent from pre recorded.

its a joke. its not workable. 99% of uk webmasters will never even know of this. Pontless.

and its ok saying they will not charge at the moment, but i bet after 5 years they will. i bet they will say, you do it, we will not charge, but register your details with us. then in 5 years they will say now we have your details we will charge you.

[SGS]

The web is international and so long as I am making enough money out of it and I am happy with the content that I'm putting out I will run my business anywhere in the worl that I need to.

If I was a pro skier I would move the the Alps.
If I was a film producer I would move to LA.
If I am a pornographer I would move back to Spain like we did in the 80's.

[dvtimes]

The web is international and so long as I am making enough money out of it and I am happy with the content that I'm putting out I will run my business anywhere in the worl that I need to.

If I was a pro skier I would move the the Alps.
If I was a film producer I would move to LA.
If I am a pornographer I would move back to Spain like we did in the 80's.

lets face it, many moved out of the usa due to them bringing in laws.

i just see this as a legisticks problem for them to police.

its going to cost them a fortune to trace webmasters down.

so i get a nock on the door and somone says you have no big r18 on your site. i say the sites are not mine i only registered the name. the owners live in spain. now f*ck off please.

At the end of the day many models do not register the domain names they simply get somone to register it for them. so unless you make those who register the names resposible your stuffed.

and if they do, all i will say is, my business is based in canada. i work in canada. i host in canada. i upload in canada. so now can you f*ck off. its just not inforcable.

[S.D.]

Once more it smacks of yet more bureaucratic bollocks, poorly thought out & ultimately designed to get more tax off people & little more else, it's yet another stealth tax in my opinion, might not start that way but in the end it's gonna cost.

It kinda reminds me of "BS5750" what a load of fucking wank that was, I was running my Car park business in the days when BS5750 was introduced, all I kept getting was calls from sales reps offering to "Help" me get accredited then sending me form after form, giving me horror stories of how my business would collapse if I didn't comply etc,etc, I was running a fucking public car park business for Christs sake not a sodding bank !

In the end BS5750 went, my business remained (& No, I never bothered getting BS5750) it was bureaucratic bollocks, all it done was slowed down the small business operator & cost the small business owner more money driven by fear.

Could be time to dust down the Plaque on the wall in Panama again

[Simon]

Do you realy belive that?

Do you think that any surfer in the uk i going to think that.

No one will even think about it.

So if they do not see a big r18, do you think they will not join.

All anyone will do is put on the bottom of there site 'this site is not eu based' then that stuffs it. Much easer than having to reedit all your film, or removing half your content.

If you have the time to reedit all your films then good for you. By the sounds of it, you may even find all your films will not be legit so you may end up dumping it. sod that.

And do you realy think anyone is bothered about buying films that have r18 on them? go down to your local car boot and they will be selling imported pirated films by the handfull.

And what about your american serfers, will they not be put off with a big r18 logo? i mean they may not know what it means.

sorry, i just do not have the time nor do i care.

as i say, its canada for me.

good luck to you lot if you have the time to re-edit your films.

because at the end of the day there will be thousands of uk sites will not bother.

just think about those on such as proadult, most of these are not even on a domain but a subdemain of proadult. hosted outside the eu. what will they do with these sites, as it will be impossible to track down the site owners.

or what about such sites as myspace, or others sites like that where people uipload there films. are you sugesting they will all ad ratings??

of course not.

It reminds me a few years ago where that site/firm tried to get all sites to pay them a fee for using film. some did, but most did not. in the end it fizzeled out.

and thats all this will do. just fizzel out. ok one or two sites may put the effort in. thats fine, while your reediting your films i will be sunbathing.

the net is way too big at the end of the day.

in fact, lets face it, there are plently of uk sites selling porn films that have never been through the film sensers, and do not give a hoot.

I know it, cause I get mails. People aren't asking to see R18 logos they just don't understand any of it. They hear about celebs being arrested for joining pornsites with their creditacrds, and as we've mentioned here before, how many times do those news reports fail to mention the exact nature of those porn sites? WE all know it wasn't regular porn, but in some cases jo surfer doesn't, so he gets all paranoid and assumes big brother is watching him. People now realise that surfing is very tracable indeed. Compare handing over a bunch of fivers at a car boot and the trail you leave every time you use the internet and your creditcard. People do worry about buying porn in the UK and you'd be daft not to. Would you want to end up on the sex offenders register? Who would you ask to clarify the law for you.

You simply have to care. You are a publisher, its your job to make sure you are on top of all the laws that apply where YOU live, cause at the end of the day they'll come arrest YOU, not your server in the US, and you'll pay the fine from the assets YOU have in the UK. For the millionth time, it just does not matter where you host, its about where YOU are!!!!

The internet isn't magic. All the normal laws apply, get over it and deal with it. And they even apply when it gives advantage to johnny foreigner, as in the case of VAT. I pay it, but no other fucker in the rest of the world does, even though they should.

[mOBSCENE]

I dont think this is the case....... In fact the BBFC logo would put punters off as they'd consider it to be a tame site....

I have seen forum discussions where DVD consumers dismiss the R18 video cut and just buy the non-R18 US version from overseas. A lot of UK porn consumers are quite savvy about this - and indeed many will not buy Throat 2 (or whatever they changed throat gaggers to) because most of the actual deep throat gagging has been cut to get R18 and the consumers know it. That is what they will do with web based R18. Will surfers really care about EU directive number ten zillion, it's the death penalty or jail in China to access porn, but there's plenty of Chinese people finding ways to get it on their screens... The more they ban things, the more desirable they become and drive underground markets - will authority never learn the lessons of prohibition?!

SB, did you ask about throat gagging? How many silent prosecutions have there been for deep throat with webmasters pleading guilty to avoid jail?!