Was Karl Marx correct?

[dvtimes]

Was Karl Marx correct?

In history we have seen two great men develop theories of how we should live.

The first was Jesus, who taught that people should be happy by accepting your situation. By this, he teaches us that we should put up with whatever life throws at us. But this is a capitalist view. He was by today's standards middle class. He may not have been rich, but as a son of a carpenter and himself being a carpenter, he was probably in a situation where he had a nice life. But he was probably had higher intelligence than most around him. And as such taught others of his thoughts. But Jesus supports business, as well as wealth. In fact he suggests that we should not seek others for help, but to help our selves to progress.

While recently we had Karl Marx. Karl Marx had far different experience to Jesus, and saw and experienced much suffering in his life. But Karl Marx teaches us that happiness is not buy getting rich, but by having a nice life. He states that people get rich simply to feel better about ourselves by putting others down. He states that getting rich and wealth is simply a joke, in fact makes people for working all week long, then on your day off you simply give your money to others (tax, rent, bills), and money left over you buy junk (such as Jeans for £200).

Karl Marx simply suggests that if you live in a society were rather than simply trying to get rich and thus trying to make yourself feel better by being one up on your fellow man, that it is better to progress by your own personal progress. Such as being better at art, music, dance, athletics and so on. Or in educational terms such as gaining a degree, becoming a doctor, or pilot or plumber (and so on). This would lead to happiness.

In deed we have seen people winning the lottery, and being still miserable. Thus showing that Karl Marx theory was correct.

But being communist seems scary, as we think of old USSR. Yet, we in the UK are 50% or so communist. We have the NHS (state run health), BBC (Not state run, but certainly not commercial). Until recently we had state run post office, and rail. Our roads are still state run. In fact until Mrs Thatcher allowed people to buy council homes we had homes provided by the state.

Interestingly even in the USA we have seen 'Star Treck' being communist. In the latest series money has been completely done away with. People progress by personal goals rather than wealth.

Also what is interesting is how famous people have or did turn to a communist lifestyle. Such as Benny Hill famously turned his back on wealth. Though he was a millionaire, he lived in a small flat, and even did not bother to bank checks. In deed what is interesting is that many solders from both first and second world war found wealth of little interest, and found happiness through personal goals.

Today we see more and more people turning there backs on large supermarkets and opt for local grown produce. Without realising it, they are living the communist dream.

This is after all what Karl Marx stated would happen.

[Dirty Derek]

Unfortunately, however good an idea Marxism appears to be, it just seems to go against human nature in the end. It has never been a successful sustainable doctrine anywhere in the world, and although until quite recently almost half the population of the world lived under regimes that claimed to be Marxist, the original ideas of Marx have been significantly modified over the years and his meanings adapted to a great variety of political circumstances.

Also, bear in mind thet Karl Marx was brought up in a comfortable middle class environment, and despite his rallies to encourage the workers of the world to unite, he never really did an honest days graft in his life. :twocents:

[Guest]

But being communist seems scary, as we think of old USSR. Yet, we in the UK are 50% or so communist. We have the NHS (state run health), BBC (Not state run, but certainly not commercial). Until recently we had state run post office, and rail. Our roads are still state run. In fact until Mrs Thatcher allowed people to buy council homes we had homes provided by the state.
A truly communist society wouldn't have a 'state'. The concepts are mutually incompatible.

The USSR itself was never, in practice, communist. Hence the name the Union of Soviet *Socialist* Republics. All countries commonly thought of as being communist, both past and present, have actually been socialist states.

[dvtimes]

Unfortunately, however good an idea Marxism appears to be, it just seems to go against human nature in the end. It has never been a successful sustainable doctrine anywhere in the world, and although until quite recently almost half the population of the world lived under regimes that claimed to be Marxist, the original ideas of Marx have been significantly modified over the years and his meanings adapted to a great variety of political circumstances.

Also, bear in mind thet Karl Marx was brought up in a comfortable middle class environment, and despite his rallies to encourage the workers of the world to unite, he never really did an honest days graft in his life. :twocents:

You say that, but odly enogh we see people more and more living the comunist lifstyle. OK they may not realise this, but just see how many shops now sell local products. Look how popular fair trade goods are (even though more expensive).

People are slowy turning away from big and cheap to fair and honest. This is after all the comunist lifestyle.

Even big firms are moving towards it, such as Tesco have said they will do away with plastic bags.

Look at america, this week sees an anti Walmart film. We are seeing people angry that big firms treat others badly.

This is the birth of comunism in a new way.

And it will simply increase.

[dvtimes]

Unfortunately, however good an idea Marxism appears to be, it just seems to go against human nature in the end. It has never been a successful sustainable doctrine anywhere in the world, and although until quite recently almost half the population of the world lived under regimes that claimed to be Marxist, the original ideas of Marx have been significantly modified over the years and his meanings adapted to a great variety of political circumstances.

Also, bear in mind thet Karl Marx was brought up in a comfortable middle class environment, and despite his rallies to encourage the workers of the world to unite, he never really did an honest days graft in his life. :twocents:

But versions also do work in some countries.

In Vietnam for instance people are truly happy I belive. The true mark of a Marxest society is the hapiness of the people. In deed in theory people would drink less and there would be less drugs and so on.

Again you presumer Marxesm does not work, but he points out, thats how the world did work, and was happy. Suich as the american indians, they lived off the land. The result it states is hapiness, low crime, low self abuse. It is when modern capitalist system is introduses it all goes belly up.

[dvtimes]

I guess the question is, are we hapier now (with big businesses, polution, exteamly rich people, all the crap you can buy), than we were say when we were simple farmers.

If you say we are, then explain why there is so much sueside, drugs, alcoloism, self abuse (just look how fat people are getting).

This to me is what he is saying is the result of capitalim. People simply are unhappy. For many people there only sorse of hapiness (which I regard as false) is two weeks holiday a year and getting married. Often if these things go not to plan, its a magor disator of there lifes.

More I see people try to get hapiness (buying junk, getting richer) the more I see them more misrable (and thus turning to drink or even cheating on there partners). This again is what he states will happen.

The key is hapiness.

It just interests me when I read his thoughts (which are almosty 200 years old) and how it relates today.

I consider my lifstyle on the comunist ethics. I work for myself (which is the comunist way) and I do not buy anything unless I need it. My car for instanse is worth £100. I buy equipment as machininary not for self gratification. Such as although I have an expensive vidio camwera, it is a business tool rather than a gadget to show off to others to make them feel bad about themselves. I do not buy expensive clothes.

The result is that I am happy.

Yet I see others working long hours for others, yes making good money, but in return buying expensive items such as a top of the range car. Why, to show off. Even trying to make themselves feel better by going out for expensive meals. Yet the result is unhapiness. Which is what he says will hapen. People try to become closer to there masters (he clearly states people are simply slaves trying to emulate there masters).

This I find interesting.

And yet people are tuning there backs on wealth. In the 80's yuppies, quit expensive jobs and opted to become postmen and other simular jobs. Simply as they did not find hapiness in wealth.

Just look at bbc 2's 'its not easy being green' where they have set up a comunist society on a farm.

Its facinating that people are (often without realising it) living a comunist lifstyle.

[strictlybroadband]

Unfortunately, however good an idea Marxism appears to be, it just seems to go against human nature in the end.

Every step forward that society takes, goes against human nature. Society civilises humans and protects us from our own natures. It's against human nature to have a legal system, to use contraception, to outlaw robbery and murder, but we accept that these are good things.

IMHO Marxism hasn't yet had a fair crack of the whip. America devoted trillions of dollars and wasted millions of lives to ensure that the "experiment" didn't succeed. Free market capitalism is leading us to global disaster. As Marx himself said, we have to find an alternative to capitalism, or see global society return to a barbaric, primitive state. He seems to be proved right.

PS: if you think communism failed in Russia, capitalism has done even worse - Russia's gone from the 2nd most powerful nation to being a basket case in only 15 years.

[dvtimes]

Every step forward that society takes, goes against human nature. Society civilises humans and protects us from our own natures. It's against human nature to have a legal system, to use contraception, to outlaw robbery and murder, but we accept that these are good things.

IMHO Marxism hasn't yet had a fair crack of the whip. America devoted trillions of dollars and wasted millions of lives to ensure that the "experiment" didn't succeed. Free market capitalism is leading us to global disaster. As Marx himself said, we have to find an alternative to capitalism, or see global society return to a barbaric, primitive state. He seems to be proved right.

PS: if you think communism failed in Russia, capitalism has done even worse - Russia's gone from the 2nd most powerful nation to being a basket case in only 15 years.

USSR was never comunist by its real sense.

Simply as it did not look after its people. In fact many starved.

People were not happy.

The difference between Russia today and the USSR is a name change.

Russia is ruled by a top ranking KGB agent. In fact after the KGB russa started up a new secret service and Putin was in charge.

Even today most TV statens are controled by him, also are many big businesses.

And just look at the controll they are trying to hasve on ex USSR states.

USSR was a cruel system that used a false comunism as an excuse. In fact it tried to force people having the result of hapiness by banning alcohol, although this failed after two years (as people just carried on drinking). In fact it was law you were happy, and being unhappy was a crime.

But take Cuba and indeed other places. People are happy. In fact it could be argued far healther, as by definistion a true comunist state must put health first.

[dvtimes]

To think of Russia today, you must think what it would be like if the CIA took over the power of the USA.

Russia is basicly now controled by the KGB.

And think how much data the KGB must have on other countries as well as people.

When the KGB 'broke up' many agents became rich and powerfull. Putin is KGB.

[dvtimes]

Shit, just thought, I am publickly staling one ofg the most powefull men in the world, if not the most powerfull.

If I have an 'acident' in the next few days, I think you may know why.

So just to make it clear, Putin is a great leader, he has given Russia great freedom. I love Putin. He has brought a far better version of democracy to Russai than any other country.

[dvtimes]

Interstingly Russia has more billionaires than any other country.

[strictlybroadband]

Shit, just thought, I am publickly staling one ofg the most powefull men in the world, if not the most powerfull.

If I have an 'acident' in the next few days, I think you may know why.

So just to make it clear, Putin is a great leader, he has given Russia great freedom. I love Putin. He has brought a far better version of democracy to Russai than any other country.

Too late mate, yer fucked. I just want it on the record that I disagree with everything you say. :cheers2:

[dvtimes]

Interestingly, if you agree with Marx that our capitalism is based on people trying to outdo each other, thus lead to greed and jelacy, thus you must accept crime to be inevitable. After all crime is done because of greed and jealousy. So to accept capitalism one must accept crime as part of it. And thus more greed and jealousy you have, more crime will increase.

Thus if you go by the Marx's way, you should by the nature of things have low or no crime.

After all, people would be purchasing necessities rather than fancy and pointless goods. By this I mean people would buy a car if it was needed, rather than an item to show off.

The argument against such a system is that you would not see progress. Well is that true?

If we take for example USA and analyze what its past greatness are, and ask what difference it would be it run in a Marx's way, its rather interesting.

For probably the greatest achievement for the USA is NASA. But this is state run (oops, this is communist). After this we see Microsoft. Could Microsoft operating systems have been developed by the people or the state. Well sure, of course. No reason why the state could not develop computer operating systems, as well as the people. In fact we see people doing this right now. Such as Unix, which is developed by the people, often quicker than Microsoft could and with less problems. In other words the communist method is working better than a large firm. And most people use Unix each day (if you go onto Google, its UNIX based, this you by definition use UNIX, in fact most web hosts are UNIX based).

In fact I would argue that quality of goods goes down as larger a firm grows. These days when an electronic firm launches a new product, often the first batches have problems.

I often think of my grandparents when I think of businesses.

First my Nan. She made loose covers. She prided herself on the quality of what she made. Although she made a bit of money, she was not rich. But she was happy and she was free to come and go as she pleased.

My other Nan was a hairdresser. She used to go to elderly people at there homes to cut there hair. Again she did not become rich, but she enjoyed doing this. She also provided a service to people who could not go to hairdresser shops. It is unlikely that a chain of hairdressers would be interested in going to elderly people.

My granddad died when I was young. From what I remember he worked in machinery. This was for a small firm. This was very skilled job. I still have most of his tools which I am prowed off, although many I am unshore of what there uses are far. But although he dad not make a lot from this job, I always remember him to be cheerful. Again I do not ever remember him being bothered about goods and buying junk.

My other granddad was a manager in a theatre (a large one). Although this was (I believe well paid, and these days extremely well paid), he never seemed to find interest in buying products. In fact most of the things he had were very old. For me this man was the most interesting men I have met. Although he could have easily bought expensive items to show off to people, he found no interest in this. In fact I think he regretted not going to university (due to the second world war and becoming a solder). though he was a conservative, I often found he lived a communist lifestyle. And he was happy.

Interestingly not only did I find that my grandparents were happy, I hardly ever saw any of them drink, nor be unpleasant to others. In fact if anyone needed help, they would help them. Thus I found Marx to be the truth.

For me modern large businesses are of greed. Producing poor quality goods and poor service.

Often large firms abuse there power. Raping the world as they go along.

By this I mean they will seek out the cheapest method of gaining goods. Hiring low waged workers in poor working conditions. Also often getting goods in ways that harm the environment.

Often small businesses can operate far greener and ethically than large powerful firms.

For small firms, not only being green is good for the environment but also can increase profits. Recently one firm in the UK that recycles goods into pencils, saved money by installing a generator and running it on food oil.

In fact this leads onto cars. It is not necessarily the fact that cars are bad for the environment. In fact a 4x4 run on food oil, is extremely environmental. Possibly even more than an electric car.

But this is the interesting thing. I first mentioned Jesus as a great teacher. But he teaches of capitalism. But as we can see capitalism equals greed and jealousy, which leads to crime or in deed all the 10 comadments. Thus we have a problem. It thus is argued that Jesus is wrong. And thus religion must be wrong.

For Marx teaches us to be much closer to nature, and the natural way. After all nature by definition is perfect. Thus more you move from nature, the less perfect system you have. And as capitalism is simply man made, it is thus the furthest you are from nature, and thus totally imperfect.

[xcite-tv]

Every step forward that society takes, goes against human nature. Society civilises humans and protects us from our own natures. It's against human nature to have a legal system, to use contraception, to outlaw robbery and murder, but we accept that these are good things.

IMHO Marxism hasn't yet had a fair crack of the whip. America devoted trillions of dollars and wasted millions of lives to ensure that the "experiment" didn't succeed. Free market capitalism is leading us to global disaster. As Marx himself said, we have to find an alternative to capitalism, or see global society return to a barbaric, primitive state. He seems to be proved right.

PS: if you think communism failed in Russia, capitalism has done even worse - Russia's gone from the 2nd most powerful nation to being a basket case in only 15 years.

I agree with everything you say except Russia is no basket case and is fast becoming one of the richest nations with the ability to hold europe to ransome with its oil and gas supplies

we had beter stay on their side

[mOBSCENE]

Fucking hell I have a weekend off the computer and everyone's done a degree in political science by the time I log back on... :)

[daveydude]

Every step forward that society takes, goes against human nature. Society civilises humans and protects us from our own natures. It's against human nature to have a legal system, to use contraception, to outlaw robbery and murder, but we accept that these are good things.

IMHO Marxism hasn't yet had a fair crack of the whip. America devoted trillions of dollars and wasted millions of lives to ensure that the "experiment" didn't succeed. Free market capitalism is leading us to global disaster. As Marx himself said, we have to find an alternative to capitalism, or see global society return to a barbaric, primitive state. He seems to be proved right.

PS: if you think communism failed in Russia, capitalism has done even worse - Russia's gone from the 2nd most powerful nation to being a basket case in only 15 years.

Indeed. Someone said earlier that Marxism isn't sustainable, but neither is capitalism - we're going to run out of resources sooner or later. Capitalism is by definition non-sustainable.

DVT claims that we are moving towards a more communist society but I disagree strongly. On the whole, large corporations are swallowing up more and more small businesses and although some people are moving back towards supporting small businesses, fair trade etc, this is on a very small scale, and is more anti-capitalist than it is communist. Choosing wisely where you spend your money is ethical consumerism, not communism.

[Bernice]

I'd go along with Marx here - in fact I see business as the ultimate form of Marxism.

Start from basic principles - all property is theft - ok so if I remove someones property in the form of their cash - that makes me almost a policewoman.

Wealth redistribution I do that too - I take money off people for my websites - they have disposeable income so can afford it. I distribute their wealth to my bank balance and also use it to pay my models who are always out of cash.
I spend way too much on clothes and makeup myself so i am always poor anyway - hence I have no 'property' to speak of. Well apart from the Mercedes but that doesnt count cos its on the drip with the finance company ( fillthy capitalist swine ). So anyway I am taking from the rich ( and horny ) who pay for my site memberships and my personal services and giving to the needy - me - I need stuff - bigger house, flasher car etc.

See - I can be in porn, have a good time and still do worthy deeds - that means I can sleep well at night and tell people I work in charity :D

From each according to his ability ( in my case the punter gets my porn ) to each according to his needs - I need their cash - its a perfectly balanced equation - beautiful and true to my roots as a Marxist Leninist.

Marches off under a red banner stating 'Hot Russian Lesbian Babes get double dicked - only £24 a month non-recurring'

[strictlybroadband]

I'd go along with Marx here - in fact I see business as the ultimate form of Marxism.

Start from basic principles - all property is theft - ok so if I remove someones property in the form of their cash - that makes me almost a policewoman.

Wealth redistribution I do that too - I take money off people for my websites - they have disposeable income so can afford it. I distribute their wealth to my bank balance and also use it to pay my models who are always out of cash.
I spend way too much on clothes and makeup myself so i am always poor anyway - hence I have no 'property' to speak of. Well apart from the Mercedes but that doesnt count cos its on the drip with the finance company ( fillthy capitalist swine ). So anyway I am taking from the rich ( and horny ) who pay for my site memberships and my personal services and giving to the needy - me - I need stuff - bigger house, flasher car etc.

See - I can be in porn, have a good time and still do worthy deeds - that means I can sleep well at night and tell people I work in charity :D

From each according to his ability ( in my case the punter gets my porn ) to each according to his needs - I need their cash - its a perfectly balanced equation - beautiful and true to my roots as a Marxist Leninist.

Marches off under a red banner stating 'Hot Russian Lesbian Babes get double dicked - only £24 a month non-recurring'

Viva la revolucion!