View Full Version : Chip-and-pin takes over from signatures
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 09:23 AM
This can only be good news to webmasters, this will get consumers used to using their cards without signing for the goods. Personally I think this will make people feel more secure about using their card online.
The C&P process cleary gives the 'consumer' complete control over the card transaction, as it is done online, its almost like people will be trully using their cards themselves.
What do you think?
See below....(from MSN)
Today is the deadline for shoppers to remember their debit and credit card pin numbers. From then on, cardholders are no longer assured the option of signing to verify a purchase and may have their cards refused.
Banks and retailers have introduced chip-and-pin technology in recent years to halt rising card fraud, requiring an increasing number of shoppers to enter their four-digit PIN numbers to verify card purchases.
Full Story (http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/article.aspx?as=adimarticle&f=uk_-_olgbtopnews&t=4023&id=2344060&d=20060214&do=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk&i=http://newsbox.msn.co.uk/mediaexportlive&ks=0&mc=5&ml=ma&lc=en&ae=windows-1252)
You think that CCBill are going to use chip & pin? They opted out more than a year ago.
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 10:25 AM
no I am not saying that - the change will happen with the CC holders. Most people hand a card to someone to process, they don't key anything at the point of sale.
I am proposing that the consumers perception of using a CC will change and they will become more comftable completing their own transactions.
Really as of today no other person should ever tounch my CC all transactions I do will be authorised or input by myself and myself only. - this is the bit I think will help convert highstreet consumers into internet shoppers.
Im thinking, being as though my epassporte card doesnt have a chip I wont be able to use it, apart from getting cash. :(
Im thinking, being as though my epassporte card doesnt have a chip I wont be able to use it, apart from getting cash. :(
They can still accept it, whether they choose to is another matter.
What about all the tourists that don't have chip and pin?
I can see some punch ups at the tills :onguard:
They can still accept it, whether they choose to is another matter.
What about all the tourists that don't have chip and pin?
I can see some punch ups at the tills :onguard:
Yes I hope you are right, about the card and the foreigners in punch ups :ugly:
Mattyboy
02-14-06, 11:24 AM
Im thinking, being as though my epassporte card doesnt have a chip I wont be able to use it, apart from getting cash. :(
I'm sure the chip and pin rule is only for UK issued cards.
I'm sure the chip and pin rule is only for UK issued cards.
May try it out, go to waitrose and fill a trolly load of goods up and see if they allow it, or put it all back on the shelves
My hubbie has hidden my PIN - he thinks it'll slow my spending down - poor deluded fool :lmao2:
May try it out, go to waitrose and fill a trolly load of goods up and see if they allow it, or put it all back on the shelves
I have been to a couple of places that will NOT take the epassporte card because of no chip.
Mattyboy
02-14-06, 11:37 AM
May try it out, go to waitrose and fill a trolly load of goods up and see if they allow it, or put it all back on the shelves
I'd love to but no Waitrose here :)
I'd love to but no Waitrose here :)
You live up t north or something? :eyebrows:
mellenig
02-14-06, 11:47 AM
They can still accept it, whether they choose to is another matter.
What about all the tourists that don't have chip and pin?
I can see some punch ups at the tills :onguard:
No merchant in the UK has any choice on whether to accept a card without chip and pin if the card is chip and pin enabled, it will just be refused by the bank if they try.
For a UK issued card you cant override the chip and pin, the only way is if the customer is a registered disabled person or is a visitor to the UK.
No merchant in the UK has any choice on whether to accept a card without chip and pin if the card is chip and pin enabled, it will just be refused by the bank if they try.
For a UK issued card you cant override the chip and pin, the only way is if the customer is a registered disabled person or is a visitor to the UK.
Well I saw on TV yestarday that they CAN override them but if it goes tits up they (the retailer) will lose that money.
See my other post about going for a meal or filling up ina petrol station :)
mellenig
02-14-06, 11:52 AM
Im thinking, being as though my epassporte card doesnt have a chip I wont be able to use it, apart from getting cash. :(
If the card doesnt have chip and pin you can still use it, the new rule is for chip and pin enabled cards only.
If the card doesnt have chip and pin you can still use it, the new rule is for chip and pin enabled cards only.
Well I can't use my eppassporte card (no chip and pin) in a few places already. Would you like a bet with me?
Go to your local petrol station and when you go to pay tell them you have forgotton your PIN, I will have £50 with you that they will override it :eyebrows:
mellenig
02-14-06, 12:01 PM
Well I saw on TV yestarday that they CAN override them but if it goes tits up they (the retailer) will lose that money.
See my other post about going for a meal or filling up ina petrol station :)
As far as we have been told if the card is chip and pin enabled the bank will just refuse it so there is no way to put it through a terminal from the merchant end.
Im not sure what would happen in the meal and petrol situation.
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 12:10 PM
No merchant in the UK has any choice on whether to accept a card without chip and pin if the card is chip and pin enabled, it will just be refused by the bank if they try.
For a UK issued card you cant override the chip and pin, the only way is if the customer is a registered disabled person or is a visitor to the UK.
This is incorrect - the vendor can acept the card with a signature though they will have to acept the liability for fraud. This is the 'official roll out date'
thing is I dont even have pin for the card I use purely for biz :-( been waiting weeks
mellenig
02-14-06, 12:11 PM
Well I can't use my eppassporte card (no chip and pin) in a few places already. Would you like a bet with me?
Go to your local petrol station and when you go to pay tell them you have forgotton your PIN, I will have £50 with you that they will override it :eyebrows:
If its not a chip and pin card there is no reason to refuse you.
It doesnt work like that upto yesterday on our terminals there was a override button for chip and pin but today that stops working. When the card details are inputted and the terminal sends of that info to the bank if the chip and pin is not present the card is declined, there is no way for me as a merchant to take your payment. The override button only works if the card holder is registered disabled or a visitor to the UK.
Cant speak for petrol stations unless they have some type of different terminals
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 12:12 PM
Im thinking, being as though my epassporte card doesnt have a chip I wont be able to use it, apart from getting cash. :(
thats what a payrole card is for dude, they give to people in the US who are poor :-)
We had solo for that purpose :)
mellenig
02-14-06, 12:21 PM
This is incorrect - the vendor can acept the card with a signature though they will have to acept the liability for fraud. This is the 'official roll out date'
thing is I dont even have pin for the card I use purely for biz :-( been waiting weeks
If you have a chip and pin enabled terminal and the buyer has a chip and pin card there is no way to accept a signature thats what we have been told by our rep.
If its not a chip and pin card there is no reason to refuse you.
It doesnt work like that upto yesterday on our terminals there was a override button for chip and pin but today that stops working. When the card details are inputted and the terminal sends of that info to the bank if the chip and pin is not present the card is declined, there is no way for me as a merchant to take your payment. The override button only works if the card holder is registered disabled or a visitor to the UK.
Cant speak for petrol stations unless they have some type of different terminals
Well I have been refused in a couple of places because there is no chip even one place that know me very well (maybe that's why).
I was in Dixons last week and asked if they take cards with no chip and they said "yes, but not after the 14th".
B&Q are not ready with the new system but I'm sure you will be able to pay with cards.
Anyway apart from all that, I think it's a shit idea anyway, so you get my PIN and my card and go and have a spend up. When I dispute it they will say "well the PIN was used" now if there was a signiture it might be easier to prove it wasn't me.
I also think people will be less careful when entering their PIN, when they are at cash machines they feel vulnerable because they are outside so many will cover up. In a shop you will feel less vulnerable and more likely to input the PIN so others can easily see.
Oh and by the way if this chip and pin stops fraud then I wll eat my hat, no actually I will buy a TV licence :lmao2:
Oh and by the way if this chip and pin stops fraud then I wll eat my hat, no actually I will buy a TV licence :lmao2:
How will you be paying for it?
mellenig
02-14-06, 12:31 PM
i agree wont help fraud one bit
How will you be paying for it?
I don't know, I can't use cash cos then the VAT man will be after me :lmao2:
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 12:52 PM
If you have a chip and pin enabled terminal and the buyer has a chip and pin card there is no way to accept a signature thats what we have been told by our rep.
cleary, though there are places which are not ready and still run the old systems along side, B&Q have been highlighted in the press today as saying they won't be ready for a full switch over till April.
Smaller shops merchants are easier to migrate. Just filled up at somerfield and they have gone 100% over to c&p - makes things a lot quicker bloody love it :)
makes things a lot quicker bloody love it
Did it take you a while to sign then :lmao2:
mellenig
02-14-06, 12:57 PM
cleary, though there are places which are not ready and still run the old systems along side, B&Q have been highlighted in the press today as saying they won't be ready for a full switch over till April.
Smaller shops merchants are easier to migrate. Just filled up at somerfield and they have gone 100% over to c&p - makes things a lot quicker bloody love it :)
Yes its loads quicker for the merchant and the buyer no messing around checking signatures.
But as geezer said it wont help fraud Ive watched customers as they have entered there chip and pin they make no attempt to cover up even if there is a people behind them.
no messing around checking signatures.
Checking signatures now there's a laugh. I went out one day and purposely made my signature look totally different, not one person questioned it.
I think it will help fraud alot, so what if not every one covers up, that then relies on someone mugging the person after they happen to be behind someone who doesnt cover up. Thats a huge difference between finding or steeling a wallet and being given the signature on the back of the card to copy
mellenig
02-14-06, 01:10 PM
Checking signatures now there's a laugh. I went out one day and purposely made my signature look totally different, not one person questioned it.
I agree not many do check signatures properly........ just makes for a quicker transaction, chip and pin against signature.
I think it will help fraud alot, so what if not every one covers up, that then relies on someone mugging the person after they happen to be behind someone who doesnt cover up. Thats a huge difference between finding or steeling a wallet and being given the signature on the back of the card to copy
But for a professional dipper it would be a doddle to get a card and it will be easier to get the PIN.
It's all irrelevent anyway, whatever they come up with the crooks will have a system to beat it.
NumptyNuts
02-14-06, 01:16 PM
I think it will help fraud alot, so what if not every one covers up, that then relies on someone mugging the person after they happen to be behind someone who doesnt cover up. Thats a huge difference between finding or steeling a wallet and being given the signature on the back of the card to copy
How many people will have it written on paper in their wallets :(
Its a lot better not to worried about the fraud just the fact people should become more comftable in 'keying in' their card details ;-)
But for a professional dipper it would be a doddle to get a card and it will be easier to get the PIN.
It's all irrelevent anyway, whatever they come up with the crooks will have a system to beat it.
I profesional dipper could steel anyones card, now this proffesional dipper has to see someone who is typing it in and letting everyone see and target them. A signature on the back of the card so they can copy it is far easier than finding a person not covering themselves and then choosing that person specifically
How many people will have it written on paper in their wallets :(
Alot less people than that actually had the signature on the back of the card for all to see wouldnt you say?
mellenig
02-14-06, 01:27 PM
I think it will help fraud alot, so what if not every one covers up, that then relies on someone mugging the person after they happen to be behind someone who doesnt cover up.
In a small shop you dont have to be stood behind them to see what numbers they are punching in, people arent as a careful as when they are stood at a cash machine when my natural instinct is too cover so no one behind can see the pin, its not the same in a shop they feel safer and their guard is down. Agred they then have to get hold of the card but if they do its a lot easeir to spend and draw money on.
Thats a huge difference between finding or steeling a wallet and being given the signature on the back of the card to copy
It will cut down fraud in that situation.
I profesional dipper could steel anyones card, now this proffesional dipper has to see someone who is typing it in and letting everyone see and target them.
www.google.co.uk - do a search on chipcard reader/writer.
and they are nothing new either, i have one so old it uses the COM port. not sure if it works with the new chips anymore, but GSM sim cards were no problem to handle.
blank cards come in handy 100 pcs packs. so you'd just need to 'borrow' the card, copy it and hand/sneak it back.
www.google.co.uk - do a search on chipcard reader/writer.
and they are nothing new either, i have one so old it uses the COM port. not sure if it works with the new chips anymore, but GSM sim cards were no problem to handle.
blank cards come in handy 100 pcs packs. so you'd just need to 'borrow' the card, copy it and hand/sneak it back.
So how is that worse now we have chip and pin?
So how is that worse now we have chip and pin?
because the PIN replaces the signature maybe? and the PIN not being as original than a signature, when it comes to challenging it? and the thief not having to see the PIN knocked in as you said, cos he can read it from the card?
because the PIN replaces the signature maybe? and the PIN not being as original than a signature, when it comes to challenging it? and the thief not having to see the PIN knocked in as you said, cos he can read it from the card?
So a criminal who gets your card is more likely to have one of these machines than he is likely to be able to copy a signature thats on the back of every card?
I guess the credit card companies were a little silly then spending the millions on the new system, when ultimatly they are going to loose out as its them who get de frauded, I guess in future thell be coming to adult webmaster forums where all the real knowledge about how to save themselves billions is :)
Shandy McAndy
02-14-06, 03:20 PM
will save me a few quid anyway as I dont know any of my numbers
So a criminal who gets your card is more likely to have one of these machines than he is likely to be able to copy a signature thats on the back of every card?
you must do this misunderstanding deliberately. :lmao2:
how do you prove you didn't knock in a PIN? hardly, unless there is some footage. praise CCTV.
how do you prove a signature isn't yours? by having experts compare it to your writing pattern.
which you think is more likely to come out in your favour?
Shandy McAndy
02-14-06, 03:45 PM
you must do this misunderstanding deliberately. :lmao2:
how do you prove you didn't knock in a PIN? hardly, unless there is some footage. praise CCTV.
how do you prove a signature isn't yours? by having experts compare it to your writing pattern.
which you think is more likely to come out in your favour?
Actually credit card companies dont go to the hassel of geting signiture writing experts in when the millions of cards that get de frauded each year are defrauded.
I used to work for a bank and the prodedure is nothing like that at all. Its all done with an accounts managers opinion and best guess, then an appeals process. If its a some over £1000 they may investigate with letters, and ultimatly a visit if its big money. Sometimes they "may" even have a uneducated look at the signature, but as most retailers know this is pretty hopeless as most peoples signatures dont match the back of there card anyway.
Signature experts are for tagart and inspector morse the rest of us have account managers who follow a prodedure thats at best a guessing game.
With regards to the way nearly all credit card fraud starts, its with someone loosing their card, then second its an oppotunist theft. Thats the two areas that the card companies have bought in chip and pin.
For the expert criminal it isnt going to stop them, but for the oppotunist its going to stop then.
you must do this misunderstanding deliberately. :lmao2:
how do you prove you didn't knock in a PIN? hardly, unless there is some footage. praise CCTV.
how do you prove a signature isn't yours? by having experts compare it to your writing pattern.
which you think is more likely to come out in your favour?
You win, credit card companies dont know what they are doing. Of course they use to get in signature experts in credit card cases before :)
All of our cards have been chip and pin for months and tapping in 4 numbers is a lot easier than having to sign a piece of paper. Wouldnt want to swap back for anything.
BTW, Waitrose were the last supermarket to go chip and pin but that changed today with no problems here at all.
You third world types I dunno.. They've been using chip and pin here for years. When I moved here 5 years ago and saw it for the first time I thought it was so cool and didn't understand why it wasn't already a more universal practice like atms are.
I hate handing my card over and having to sign. Chip and pin is so much more civilised.
WordsforHire
02-15-06, 01:25 AM
Chip and pin is great if you dont have like 4 different cards or something and all the pins are different.
I totally agree that chip and pin wont stop fraud. Look at it this way most muggers stake out their victim anyways at the cash machines and then follow them, quickly dip into their pockets take their card and head back to the cash machines how does this make a shop any different. All they need to do now is make sure that the card belongs to someone the same sex otherwise they will have some explaining to do if the shop keeper happens to note the name on the card.
I dont mind the chip and pin and enjoy it but alot of muggings happen around ATM machines anyways where you have to use a pin...and lo and behold they see your pin, although seeing your pin there is more difficult. Imagine if they started targetting shops how much easier it is going to be for them...
But I still wouldnt swap it for anything...
To explain abit more..
Chip and Pin is a UK only process. It isn't being used in the US. Untill I called my bank over there didn't even know about it :) The US has it's own system but is totally different to ours.
All major shops will still have to accept non chip cards, or they'll make no sales to overseas visitors. It's only the small off licence etc. who will refuse non chipped cards...
Chip and pin is great if you dont have like 4 different cards or something and all the pins are different.
Just go to an ATM and change all of your PINs to one that you can remember. Takes about 30 seconds.
xcite-tv
02-15-06, 10:30 AM
Chip and pin is great ...
we use each others cards if we forget our own..
I often shop in tesco'c with wifes card as i never use mine much.
never challenged yet
Scotty.T
02-15-06, 11:42 AM
I filled the car up last night, handed my card up expected to have to put the pin in as usual...but they asked me to sign for it. :):):)
Beloved Husband got his card wallet knicked a couple of weeks ago. It took the pickpocket exactly eight minutes to access his bank account and draw money - we still don't know how - and no B.H. hasn't got his PIN written down anywhere.
Shandy McAndy
02-16-06, 10:24 PM
Beloved Husband got his card wallet knicked a couple of weeks ago. It took the pickpocket exactly eight minutes to access his bank account and draw money - we still don't know how - and no B.H. hasn't got his PIN written down anywhere.
would have taken just 1 minute if the theif could see your sign writen on the back of the card.
would have taken just 1 minute if the theif could see your sign writen on the back of the card.
Nah, no way. Beloved Husband always forgets to sign his cards :lmao2:
Shandy McAndy
02-18-06, 10:45 AM
Nah, no way. Beloved Husband always forgets to sign his cards :lmao2:
Me too :blush:
Actually credit card companies dont go to the hassel of geting signiture writing experts in when the millions of cards that get de frauded each year are defrauded.
no, but YOU will when your card is being used for massive amounts and take the case to court. or will you just accept you have been fucked?
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