View Full Version : VAT Saga Continues
Hi,
We have had a previous thread where it seems some peoples accountants have got a ruling where they do not have to pay VAT on CCbill subscriptions while other accountants have had a ruling where they infact have to.
I have my accountant back on the case regarding this, and he has now finally got a spokesperson from the VAT office to confirm there are indeed rulings currently for both.
But apparently they are now in the process of getting their 'house in order' and will decide upon a ruling one way or the other, but no longer both ways.
So fingers crossed here. We may get a nice fat cheque back!
Something should happen on this within the next 7-10 days.
:)
xcite-tv
01-12-06, 06:00 PM
Hi,
We have had a previous thread where it seems some peoples accountants have got a ruling where they do not have to pay VAT on CCbill subscriptions while other accountants have had a ruling where they infact have to.
I have my accountant back on the case regarding this, and he has now finally got a spokesperson from the VAT office to confirm there are indeed rulings currently for both.
But apparently they are now in the process of getting their 'house in order' and will decide upon a ruling one way or the other, but no longer both ways.
So fingers crossed here. We may get a nice fat cheque back!
Something should happen on this within the next 7-10 days.
:)
The whole VAT thing and the fact we started a new company to do this means we are moving it offshore...
Ruling one way or another on what?
Paysite owners and affiliates?
Paysite owners in the UK and affiliates abroad?
paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners that use cascading billing?
Paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK affiliates abroad but the surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners abroad, affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK, affiliates in the UK but surfer abroad?
I can carry on, but you get the idea :)
Mattyboy
01-12-06, 06:45 PM
Ruling one way or another on what?
Paysite owners and affiliates?
Paysite owners in the UK and affiliates abroad?
paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners that use cascading billing?
Paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK affiliates abroad but the surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners abroad, affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK, affiliates in the UK but surfer abroad?
I can carry on, but you get the idea :)
I will cherish my memory of when the VAT officer paid me a visit and i confused the hell out him.
xcite-tv
01-12-06, 07:16 PM
I will cherish my memory of when the VAT officer paid me a visit and i confused the hell out him.
Its not difficult mine keeps trying not to let us put clothing through that are 100% used on shoots..had to get an item out and ask him if he would wear that day to day
that shocked the fucker
but the taxman and the VAT are no the same dept and thats scary
offshore for me this year
Ruling one way or another on what?
Paysite owners and affiliates?
Paysite owners in the UK and affiliates abroad?
Paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners and affiliates in the UK?
Paysite owners that use cascading billing?
Paysite owners abroad and affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK affiliates abroad but the surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners abroad, affiliates in the UK but surfer in the UK?
Paysite owners in the UK, affiliates in the UK but surfer abroad?
I can carry on, but you get the idea :)
OK, it's how the VAT office see CCBILL.
Whether CCbill can be deemed as our sole customer and because they are located in the USA, they are outside the scope for VAT.
Or if each CCBILL customer based in the EU who signs up to our website is classified as our own customer, for which then VAT would be applicable.
WordsforHire
01-12-06, 08:10 PM
Thank god I dont pay VAT im confuzzled!
OK, it's how the VAT office see CCBILL.
Whether CCbill can be deemed as our sole customer and because they are located in the USA, they are outside the scope for VAT.
Or if each CCBILL customer based in the EU who signs up to our website is classified as our own customer, for which then VAT would be applicable.
Its not that simple. Because your from the UK and dont make sales to an affiliate program or dont have affiliates, your case is much more simple than most. For you the question is only how the VAT see CCBill. For most people its much more complicated. Especially when you have sponsors and affiliates all mixed into the whole horrible mess.
Its not that simple. Because your from the UK and dont make sales to an affiliate program or dont have affiliates, your case is much more simple than most. For you the question is only how the VAT see CCBill. For most people its much more complicated. Especially when you have sponsors and affiliates all mixed into the whole horrible mess.
The VAT guy is only interested in getting his % of the membership price, irrespective of if it is a direct signup or via an affiliate if the purchaser is based in the EU.
Unfortunately if you get the signup via an affiliate, it just means even less money for you.
That's the way it currently works for us and our network.
By no means an expert on sponsors etc, but I would assume, the VAT guy is only interested in your vatable income from each sponsor if they are located in the EU as your sponsor is deemed your customer.
By no means an expert on sponsors etc, but I would assume, the VAT guy is only interested in your vatable income from each sponsor if they are located in the EU as your sponsor is deemed your customer.
The sponsor is US based if your using CCBill. Its CCBills affiliate scheme not the individual sponsors
daveydude
01-13-06, 05:53 PM
If you use CCBill or any biller in the US, the website member is a customer of the biller, not you. You provide the website content as a service to CCBill. Therefore none of the money you get from CCBill is eligible for VAT, even if the website member is in the EU, they are still paying CCBill in the US.
If you use CCBill or any biller in the US, the website member is a customer of the biller, not you. You provide the website content as a service to CCBill. Therefore none of the money you get from CCBill is eligible for VAT, even if the website member is in the EU, they are still paying CCBill in the US.
Correct and even if the rules were changed and VAT *were* to become an issue I think that people running adult businesses online would move their business from these green and pleasant shores in a heartbeat.
daveydude
01-13-06, 07:21 PM
Correct and even if the rules were changed and VAT *were* to become an issue I think that people running adult businesses online would move their business from these green and pleasant shores in a heartbeat.
Moving is easier said than done for most though. It's not just a case of hosting elsewhere, you'd have to physically move would you not? Or is it possible to run an offshore business and reside in the UK?
If you use CCBill or any biller in the US, the website member is a customer of the biller, not you. You provide the website content as a service to CCBill. Therefore none of the money you get from CCBill is eligible for VAT, even if the website member is in the EU, they are still paying CCBill in the US.
This statement is the whole reason for this thread.
Some webmasters have got a written ruling to this effect.
While others have got a different ruling, where it states the end user is the customer.
So there are currently two different rulings coming from the VAT office.
We are currently in the cat, where our VAT office treat the end user as our customer and we have to pay VAT to this effect.
Again as stated in the beginning of the thread, the apparently new VAT dept which deals with internet related transactions, are looking into it.
I have my accountant back on the case regarding this, and he has now finally got a spokesperson from the VAT office to confirm there are indeed rulings currently for both.
But apparently they are now in the process of getting their 'house in order' and will decide upon a ruling one way or the other, but no longer both ways.
All I can say from experience is some webmasters eligible to pay VAT are currently paying VAT for EU CCBILL transactions while others are not.
We have been told by our accountant it's just a case of wait and see what the VAT chaps decide.
Or is it possible to run an offshore business and reside in the UK?
You can run your business from anywhere. Loads of us already have companies in the US.
Mattyboy
01-13-06, 07:51 PM
This statement is the whole reason for this thread.
Some webmasters have got a written ruling to this effect.
While others have got a different ruling, where it states the end user is the customer.
So there are currently two different rulings coming from the VAT office.
We are currently in the cat, where our VAT office treat the end user as our customer and we have to pay VAT to this effect.
Again as stated in the beginning of the thread, the apparently new VAT dept which deals with internet related transactions, are looking into it.
I have my accountant back on the case regarding this, and he has now finally got a spokesperson from the VAT office to confirm there are indeed rulings currently for both.
But apparently they are now in the process of getting their 'house in order' and will decide upon a ruling one way or the other, but no longer both ways.
All I can say from experience is some webmasters eligible to pay VAT are currently paying VAT for EU CCBILL transactions while others are not.
We have been told by our accountant it's just a case of wait and see what the VAT chaps decide.
I had to pay VAT on my sales so a final answer will be nice.
Depending which way it swings, will i be getting a VAT rebate back or will the guys and girls not paying owe money on all non paid VAT?
Moving is easier said than done for most though. It's not just a case of hosting elsewhere, you'd have to physically move would you not? Or is it possible to run an offshore business and reside in the UK?
We recently went through an Inland Revenue investigation where they wanted to examine our records for 2003-2004.
It took months to complete, but we passed with flying colours (my wife is an admin genius and has every record for anything whatsoever at her fingertips, god bless her)
They couldn't tell us why they decided on investigating us, but hinted if you stick your head above the parapet, you will get noticed.
And the records they wanted to examine was the same year as we appeared on BBC2 in the Sex Empires series. I guess you could put two and two together.
However, back to the question.
They had all our info, even knew how much we sold our house for a few years back etc.
They examined every business and personal bank transaction and told us in no uncertain terms, if we had any offshore dealings, they would find them and TAX would be applicable because.......
We lived in the UK, published our content from the UK and therefore come under the UK TAX laws.
He even laughed and told us they had taken down several companies (non adult) resulting in liquidation who thought they could get away with it by going offshore.
I am sure there are some clever ways around this, as there always is, but the basic answer is you would still be required to pay tax.
I had to pay VAT on my sales so a final answer will be nice.
Depending which way it swings, will i be getting a VAT rebate back or will the guys and girls not paying owe money on all non paid VAT?
That's the million dollar question.
No idea to be honest.
We can only hope, and as I said in the beginning of the thread, we have our fingers crossed
Isnt it the case that the VAT/Revenue always rule in their favour then its upto the indiviuals or companies to take them to court and prove otherwise??? As M&S have just done over their european losses???
If your going offshore, u do need the advise of a decent accountant (not little joe bloggs around the corner because hes cheap) who has expereince of taking things off shore....
I had to pay VAT on my sales so a final answer will be nice.
Depending which way it swings, will i be getting a VAT rebate back or will the guys and girls not paying owe money on all non paid VAT?
I think you are over estimating what this ruling for TAC will mean. It will mean a ruling for TAC. Every business is different. Like Ive said before you will get to different VAT people saying two different things and two different accountants saying two different things. There are just to many variables.
Its up to each individual business to fight there own VAT case. The first thing to do is get an accountant who agrees with you and who is willing to argue with the VAT office.
You wont get a rebate because of what Craigs VAT office tells him, that is one thing I can asure you off.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 09:48 AM
You wont get a rebate because of what Craigs VAT office tells him, that is one thing I can asure you off.
Perhaps i'm missing something but isn't this 'getting the house in order' applicable for VAT in general for everyone and not just Craig's local dept?
Perhaps i'm missing something but isn't this 'getting the house in order' applicable for VAT in general for everyone and not just Craig's local dept?
You think there is some national concensous amoung the customs and exscise about whether some UK smut peeps who are using one particular overseas third party biller should pay VAT or not? Its hardly budget day stuff dude is it :crown:
Perhaps i'm missing something but isn't this 'getting the house in order' applicable for VAT in general for everyone and not just Craig's local dept?
From what our accountant said following his discussion with the VAT office , I see it this way too.
At the end of the day, how can they continue to allow one webmaster to pay VAT and not another, when the webmasters are dealing with the same billing company in the same circumstances.
You think there is some national concensous amoung the customs and exscise about whether some UK smut peeps who are using one particular overseas third party biller should pay VAT or not? Its hardly budget day stuff dude is it :crown:
I do know our accountant is not dealing with our local VAT office who we pay our VAT to regarding this.
He is dealing with some internet specific VAT unit, so it could be a possibility I guess, but again, it's anyones guess at the moment.
I don't have any hard or fast answers.
I just thought this info would be worth reporting on to you all at B&B.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 05:48 PM
At the end of the day, how can they continue to allow one webmaster to pay VAT and not another, when the webmasters are dealing with the same billing company in the same circumstances.
Thats the point i was trying to make but perhaps didn't word it to well :)
Surely there will be a "one rule applies to all" before long rather than different local offices saying different things.
Theres a lot of webmasters about with only a very few billing companies so making a new rule should be easy i guess?
Thats the point i was trying to make but perhaps didn't word it to well :)
Surely there will be a "one rule applies to all" before long rather than different local offices saying different things.
Theres a lot of webmasters about with only a very few billing companies so making a new rule should be easy i guess?
This is only my personal view, but I agree with you 100%.
The UK webmaster community will have a combined gross income worth millions of dollars. This fact cannot fail to catch their eye.
One thing I can say is the tax office were still finding their feet regarding internet businesses last quarter of 2005. And I would assume the VAT man is on a similar learning curve.
When we were investigated, we had to go through our billing processors in great details.
To take CCBILL for example, we had to show and explain several reports as they did not understand the system.
They were very focused on 'The Money Trail'
We had to save the reports locally and immediately cut them to CDROM (supplied by the taxman LOL) while they watched.
We were not allowed to be left unattended in the room, until the reports were on the CD and had been handed over to them.
One of the guys said, checking established companies is easy because if you take a pub for example, they have hundreds of existing investigations to compare their data with and are aware of all the fiddles.
They went on to say, the internet is a whole different ballgame.
So I guess everyone is on a learning curve to some degree still.
This is only my personal view, but I agree with you 100%.
The UK webmaster community will have a combined gross income worth millions of dollars. This fact cannot fail to catch their eye.
One thing I can say is the tax office were still finding their feet regarding internet businesses last quarter of 2005. And I would assume the VAT man is on a similar learning curve.
When we were investigated, we had to go through our billing processors in great details.
To take CCBILL for example, we had to show and explain several reports as they did not understand the system.
They were very focused on 'The Money Trail'
We had to save the reports locally and immediately cut them to CDROM (supplied by the taxman LOL) while they watched.
We were not allowed to be left unattended in the room, until the reports were on the CD and had been handed over to them.
One of the guys said, checking established companies is easy because if you take a pub for example, they have hundreds of existing investigations to compare their data with and are aware of all the fiddles.
They went on to say, the internet is a whole different ballgame.
So I guess everyone is on a learning curve to some degree still.
I should have added to this that these guys were not interested in if we tried to claim for a few pairs of knickers or a box of toys.
The wanted to know our gross income, and where every single penny ended up and how it got there.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 06:28 PM
The VAT officer who visited me was certainly confused and i had to pull him up on a few things.
His books he had with him were out of date and luckily i could prove that his info wasn't correct when i showed him the VAT website which is more up to date.
An interesting PDF is available Here (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_CL_001727)
Thats the point i was trying to make but perhaps didn't word it to well :)
Surely there will be a "one rule applies to all" before long rather than different local offices saying different things.
Theres a lot of webmasters about with only a very few billing companies so making a new rule should be easy i guess?
I cant see how there will be one rule that applies to all, even though "some" people use the same third party billing company and "some" of those are vatable. and "some" of those own sites and "some" of those are affiliates. It will like any ofline business for each person to argue it out with his accountant and VAT office.
With regards to the off shore issue. I think you may be mixing up an offshore business with an offshore bank account. The two are very different.
I cant see how there will be one rule that applies to all, even though "some" people use the same third party billing company and "some" of those are vatable. and "some" of those own sites and "some" of those are affiliates. It will like any ofline business for each person to argue it out with his accountant and VAT office.
They would just get you to break down your ccbill cheque into each cat.
We currently have to break our cheque down to non EU, and each individual EU country.
We have to run the country breakdown report each quarter to get the info.
So I would guess they would get you to break your ccbill cheque down into affiliate income, own website generated income etc etc.
They would just get you to break down your ccbill cheque into each cat.
We currently have to break our cheque down to non EU, and each individual EU country.
We have to run the country breakdown report each quarter to get the info.
So I would guess they would get you to break your ccbill cheque down into affiliate income, own website generated income etc etc.
So you don't have a US LLC?
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 06:45 PM
They would just get you to break down your ccbill cheque into each cat.
We currently have to break our cheque down to non EU, and each individual EU country.
We have to run the country breakdown report each quarter to get the info.
So I would guess they would get you to break your ccbill cheque down into affiliate income, own website generated income etc etc.
And that itself is a fulltime job :(
Craig out of interest. How does this effect you, in terms of most of your sites being part owned by the models. If they are not VAT registered, do they have to pay VAT anyway on there portion?
So you don't have a US LLC?
hi, no we don't have one.
hi, no we don't have one.
But you do pay the VAT? Does your accountant understand about the Anglo / US transatlantic treaty (from the early 70s I think) with regards taxation?
So you don't have a US LLC?
Having such a thing, does that meen you have to pay US tax and UK tax when you pay yourself here?
Craig out of interest. How does this effect you, in terms of most of your sites being part owned by the models. If they are not VAT registered, do they have to pay VAT anyway on there portion?
We have to currently pay VAT on the gross subscription.
The models deal independantly with their accountant and taxoffice regarding their portion of the sale.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 06:58 PM
So you don't have a US LLC?
If you have EU/UK affiliates, then those sales are subject to VAT i believe.
But you do pay the VAT? Does your accountant understand about the Anglo / US transatlantic treaty (from the early 70s I think) with regards taxation?
Yes we are currently paying VAT.
Anglo / US transatlantic treaty, no idea to be honest, but I will now ask the question to check.
Having such a thing, does that meen you have to pay US tax and UK tax when you pay yourself here?
It means you can chose where you pay your tax.
If you have EU/UK affiliates, then those sales are subject to VAT i believe.
I don't think that you will find that US adult companies are.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 07:10 PM
I don't think that you will find that US adult companies are.
I'm just saying for those of us that currently are :mad:
If you have a UK/EU affiliate, then the point of sale is made outside of the US.
We have to currently pay VAT on the gross subscription.
The models deal independantly with their accountant and taxoffice regarding their portion of the sale.
So they pay VAT on there portion of the sale, regardless of whether they are VAT registered or not?
Out of interest, if they are VAT registered and you are paying them, then you are their customer and so they could potentially have their sale, firstly hit by VAT if the member is an EU member, then secondly have to pay VAT on all the sales to you, as you are VAT registered and UK based?
I guess not many are VAT registered, so wouldnt come up that often, but would be a pain otherwise
I'm just saying for those of us that currently are :mad:
If you have a UK/EU affiliate, then the point of sale is made outside of the US.
Would it not be the other way round? The affiliates point of sale is the sponsor. Not the sponsors point of sale being the affiliate.
One of the problems of being involved with a fairly new area such as the web is that it means that there is always lots of drama involving billing, visa, taxation and a load of other things too. It will be better for everyone when a few more years have passed and the business model has settled down and all of the grey area and uncertainties have been sorted out.
I think that 2006 will see the biggest changes so far as far as this business is concerned and the changes will keep coming hard and fast.
Mattyboy
01-14-06, 07:43 PM
Would it not be the other way round? The affiliates point of sale is the sponsor. Not the sponsors point of sale being the affiliate.
Yes, my bad :)
I'm tired and forgot about US LLC.
I should have added to this that these guys were not interested in if we tried to claim for a few pairs of knickers or a box of toys.
The wanted to know our gross income, and where every single penny ended up and how it got there.
Sounds like this riduclous money laundering stuff to me.....
It means you can chose where you pay your tax.
I think that applies to tax and not VAT if you have an operation in the EU....
If you by software from america on the web now, you are often charged VAT... even though yr logged onto an american site....
I think that applies to tax and not VAT if you have an operation in the EU....
If you by software from america on the web now, you are often charged VAT... even though yr logged onto an american site....
Yes but if your LLC is in the US and you as an employee of your LLC are in the UK then you can chose to pay your sales and corp tax in the US and your income tax on your own earnings in the UK.
Quick edit just to add... Your company is liable for the VAT or sales tax and not you as an employee.
Sandy Dear
01-18-06, 02:10 AM
I am an accountant and have clients who have websites
I have been through the process with them and have sucessfully got it that
billing by CCBill is 'outside the scope of VAT' so no VAT is payable.
Got that in writing, but be careful of other billers and where their servers are
mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net for more info
I am an accountant and have clients who have websites
I have been through the process with them and have sucessfully got it that
billing by CCBill is 'outside the scope of VAT' so no VAT is payable.
Got that in writing, but be careful of other billers and where their servers are
mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net for more info
Same advice here too but were told to to be careful of EU billers such as Verotel where the VAT office said they would look again with a view to enforce.
I am an accountant and have clients who have websites
I have been through the process with them and have sucessfully got it that
billing by CCBill is 'outside the scope of VAT' so no VAT is payable.
Got that in writing, but be careful of other billers and where their servers are
mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net for more info
BTW, welcome and you must be the sexiest accountant in the world? :)
Just to be a devils advocate...
If you are in the EU then you work with CCBill EU not CCBill LLC etc. Therefore it could be seen that all sales are in the EU :(
xcite-tv
01-18-06, 12:56 PM
Craig out of interest. How does this effect you, in terms of most of your sites being part owned by the models. If they are not VAT registered, do they have to pay VAT anyway on there portion?
Models pay VAT????....... :lmao2: :lmao2:
Tax is a four letter word for most of them....
think about it
xcite-tv
01-18-06, 12:59 PM
I am an accountant and have clients who have websites
I have been through the process with them and have sucessfully got it that
billing by CCBill is 'outside the scope of VAT' so no VAT is payable.
Got that in writing, but be careful of other billers and where their servers are
mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net for more info
You couldn't copy that to us ????
Just to be a devils advocate...
If you are in the EU then you work with CCBill EU not CCBill LLC etc. Therefore it could be seen that all sales are in the EU :(
This is an excellent point.
I would assume anyone not currently paying VAT for their CCbill transactions, must have an LLC company.
Under the current exemption ruling that some webmasters have, they would end up paying VAT on 100% of their transactions as they would be dealing with CCBILL EU?
Or is this not the case?
Just to be a devils advocate...
If you are in the EU then you work with CCBill EU not CCBill LLC etc. Therefore it could be seen that all sales are in the EU :(
Then it would be CCBills problem. We are paid from the US in US dollars.
If anyone here is paying VAT I would seriously suggest talking to another accountant.
If anyone here is paying VAT I would seriously suggest talking to another accountant.
Unless of course it works out better for you being VAT liable that is.
This is an excellent point.
I would assume anyone not currently paying VAT for their CCbill transactions, must have an LLC company.
Under the current exemption ruling that some webmasters have, they would end up paying VAT on 100% of their transactions as they would be dealing with CCBILL EU?
Or is this not the case?
Its not the case. You are paid by the US company CCBill in US dollars, posted from the US address made out by the US bank
Its not the case. You are paid by the US company CCBill in US dollars, posted from the US address made out by the US bank
Bingo. That's all the VAT looked at and all they wanted to know.
Sandy Dear
01-20-06, 12:02 AM
I am an accountant to several webmasters and have been through the process of registration and I can say that if you want advice mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net.
Without blowing my own trumpet, I know what I am doing
I am an accountant to several webmasters and have been through the process of registration and I can say that if you want advice mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net.
Without blowing my own trumpet, I know what I am doing
Just to add to that, was speaking to our accountants yesterday and they were absolutely staggered that anyone would have stood for this. You guys paying need to get some proper help here.
NumptyNuts
01-20-06, 03:11 PM
I don't see how using a US processor to manage your sales protects you form VAT, if this was the case then it would be really easy for companies who are in ecommerce to just use a processor outside of the UK/EU to avoid paying VAT.
Here read this document - from how I understand if YOU provide the content then regaurdless of how you bill or who you bill with you have to pay VAT
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageLibrary_PublicNoticesAndInfoSheets&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000907
Im no accountant though that looks pretty clear to me and sugests if you provide content then you pay VAT :(
Im no accountant though that looks pretty clear to me and sugests if you provide content then you pay VAT :(
That's why we pay accountants. :)
NumptyNuts
01-20-06, 05:45 PM
That's why we pay accountants. :)
:) I know mate I'm just reading what they have that covers digital media.
I know that CCPay got people around the VAT issue by saying they owned the domain or something, I mailed the guy today to see if he would send me the disclaimer / T&C's they used to post here, soon as I get I will :)
Im no accountant though that looks pretty clear to me and sugests if you provide content then you pay VAT :(
Its a good job your not an accountant then :)
I know that CCPay got people around the VAT issue by saying they owned the domain or something, I mailed the guy today to see if he would send me the disclaimer / T&C's they used to post here, soon as I get I will :)
Thats called VAT evasion. Could possibly end you up in big trouble if your VAT registered. The best thing is not to lie, but get an accountant who understands third party billing. If your accountant is telling you to take out the VAT then you need to change accountants.
Sandy Dear
01-28-06, 12:05 AM
Some billing will be subject to VAT but CC Billing is outside of the scope of VAT, cos its Stateside and the server is there. It depends where the server is, maybe thats why there is confusion that some of you are getting VAT offices saying you are subject to VAT and others are not
Anybody can mail me on sandy.dear@tesco.net to find out more
NumptyNuts
01-28-06, 10:19 AM
Thats called VAT evasion. Could possibly end you up in big trouble if your VAT registered. The best thing is not to lie, but get an accountant who understands third party billing. If your accountant is telling you to take out the VAT then you need to change accountants.
The Vat office seemed to have a different view on VAT, if you read their policy about supply of digital content you will see what I mean.
I understand 3rd party billing, I understand it enough to know they just provider. I can see why some accountants may be saying you don't need to pay VAT, the simple answer is to ask CCBill they will know 100% either way if they or you are liable for VAT.
Sandy Dear - CCBill EU process their payments via a bank in Malta which the last time I checked was not state side. As I said Im not accountant / book keeper though the directives relating to VAT and electronic commerce seem pretty clear.
Like I said before if it was this simple to avoid paying VAT then any online compnay would move hosting and payments to US and would save 17.5% per sale.
But is Malta part of the EU?
If not, do transactions processed there fall within the VAT regulations?
Manowar
01-28-06, 04:20 PM
But is Malta part of the EU?
If not, do transactions processed there fall within the VAT regulations?
Good question, bump for a reply. :)
But is Malta part of the EU?
If not, do transactions processed there fall within the VAT regulations?
Yes
http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=malta
I understand 3rd party billing, I understand it enough to know they just provider. I can see why some accountants may be saying you don't need to pay VAT, the simple answer is to ask CCBill they will know 100% either way if they or you are liable for VAT.
We are ahead of the game and have already asked.
We emailed CCBILL USA and CCBILL EU responded.
Email recieved from CCBill Smithsmedia asking that very question reads as follows......
"Based on a review of the law by our EU attorney, we believe that CCBill EU is not responsible for collecting the VAT. We are unable to comment further.
Thomas A. Fisher, VP CWIE Holding Company, Inc"
The Vat office seemed to have a different view on VAT, if you read their policy about supply of digital content you will see what I mean.
I understand 3rd party billing, I understand it enough to know they just provider. I can see why some accountants may be saying you don't need to pay VAT, the simple answer is to ask CCBill they will know 100% either way if they or you are liable for VAT.
Sandy Dear - CCBill EU process their payments via a bank in Malta which the last time I checked was not state side. As I said Im not accountant / book keeper though the directives relating to VAT and electronic commerce seem pretty clear.
Like I said before if it was this simple to avoid paying VAT then any online compnay would move hosting and payments to US and would save 17.5% per sale.
Sandy is a registered accountant who specialises in adult internet. She has like many others who are actually VAT registered and employ accountants, been told by the VAT office that dont have to charge VAT and has it in writing from the VAT office. Sorry not to want to take your opinion over my accountants and the VAT office, but I trust my accounts with registered accountants not guessing work :)
To be honest this whole argument is a little ridiculous. If you are VAT registered then get an accountant and sort it out one way or the other. If you are not then keep guessing as much as you want it makes no difference.
Everyone who is VAT registered needs to get it sorted with there own VAT office and not play guessing games with the law
Yes
http://www.uktradeinfo.com/index.cfm?task=malta
Thanks for that, although it's no cause for worry here. At our last VAT inspection, it was agreed that we didn't need to account for VAT on our dollar revenue. Have to agree with JT - it's best left to qualified accountants :)
Sandy is a registered accountant who specialises in adult internet. She has like many others who are actually VAT registered and employ accountants, been told by the VAT office that dont have to charge VAT and has it in writing from the VAT office. Sorry not to want to take your opinion over my accountants and the VAT office, but I trust my accounts with registered accountants not guessing work :)
To be honest this whole argument is a little ridiculous. If you are VAT registered then get an accountant and sort it out one way or the other. If you are not then keep guessing as much as you want it makes no difference.
Everyone who is VAT registered needs to get it sorted with there own VAT office and not play guessing games with the law
That's exactly what I am currently doing JT. Getting our accountant to find out why we have to pay VAT when other webmasters don't on CCBILL EU customers.
I think this one is gonna run and run for a little while longer.
Bypassing local VAT offices and dealing with the central VAT office, they are of the same opinion as Smithsmedia at this moment in time.
We are having to provide written proof to backup our concerns & enquiry.
We don't have anything from CCBILL to help, as you can see by what I posted above.
This is something I will continue to push as I don't want to pay VAT if other webmasters don't have to.
I have been told by our accountant that these rulings have a caveat of "by information supplied".
So if the information supplied that favoured the ruling to run one way turns out not to be precise, the ruling may no longer be correct and upheld.
If it's something we do not have to pay, then nobody should be paying it regardless of their accountant.
This is a UK VAT issue and therefore will apply to everyone who deals with CCBILL under the afore mentioned set out cirmcumstances.
That's exactly what I am currently doing JT. Getting our accountant to find out why we have to pay VAT when other webmasters don't on CCBILL EU customers.
I think this one is gonna run and run for a little while longer.
Bypassing local VAT offices and dealing with the central VAT office, they are of the same opinion as Smithsmedia at this moment in time.
We are having to provide written proof to backup our concerns & enquiry.
We don't have anything from CCBILL to help, as you can see by what I posted above.
This is something I will continue to push as I don't want to pay VAT if other webmasters don't have to.
I have been told by our accountant that these rulings have a caveat of "by information supplied".
So if the information supplied that favoured the ruling to run one way turns out not to be precise, the ruling may no longer be correct and upheld.
If it's something we do not have to pay, then nobody should be paying it regardless of their accountant.
This is a UK VAT issue and therefore will apply to everyone who deals with CCBILL under the afore mentioned set out cirmcumstances.
In any business, its not unusual for two accountants and VAT inspectors to come out with two different opinions. It happens all the time.
Regardless of what ends up being a decision that happens to you. It will still be for everyone to deal with their own VAT, their own VAT office and their own accountant. Just like it is now. More importantly, for them to be liable for paying it or not.
I think you are mistaken, that if you think that you get a decision one way or another that its going to effect anyone. Ive had my desision made. By my accountant and the Customs and excise in writing and it hasnt effected you, so why do you think yours will effect me?
As I have said before many times. IN ANY BUSINESS get two different accountants and get two different VAT people and ask them a question and you will often get two different answers. Its up to each individual business to deal with their own VAT and only they are liable
In any business, its not unusual for two accountants and VAT inspectors to come out with two different opinions. It happens all the time.
Regardless of what ends up being a decision that happens to you. It will still be for everyone to deal with their own VAT, their own VAT office and their own accountant. Just like it is now. More importantly, for them to be liable for paying it or not.
I think you are mistaken, that if you think that you get a decision one way or another that its going to effect anyone. Ive had my desision made. By my accountant and the Customs and excise in writing and it hasnt effected you, so why do you think yours will effect me?
As I have said before many times. IN ANY BUSINESS get two different accountants and get two different VAT people and ask them a question and you will often get two different answers. Its up to each individual business to deal with their own VAT and only they are liable
I think 4 reasons at least.
1- This issue is in its infancy in terms of VAT history. For example, several years ago pre internet, this conversation would not even be happening.
2- If having a US based billing processor enabled you to escape VAT, every big company and his dog would have set one up to sell products and escape paying VAT by now.
3- This discussion is in the public domain and affects alot of webmasters. There will be plenty of doors being knocked by people wanting answers. Not one webmaster worth his salt will sit back now and accept paying VAT while he knows others are getting away with it.
4- And lastly the internet VAT dept. are following this board from another VAT post on here which started this all off (here) (http://www.beerandbollocks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415) .
I think 4 reasons at least.
1- This issue is in its infancy in terms of VAT history. For example, several years ago pre internet, this conversation would not even be happening.
2- If having a US based billing processor enabled you to escape VAT, every big company and his dog would have set one up to sell products and escape paying VAT by now.
3- This discussion is in the public domain and affects alot of webmasters. There will be plenty of doors being knocked by people wanting answers. Not one webmaster worth his salt will sit back now and accept paying VAT while he knows others are getting away with it.
4- And lastly the internet VAT dept. are following this board from another VAT post on here which started this all off (here) (http://www.beerandbollocks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=415) .
You havnt got a US Based Billing processor. You have a US based third party billing processor. You supply them content, they supply that to their customers. CCBill customers are NOT your customers, you dont have their credit card details, you cant take money from them, you cant return money to them. The very reason that you dont have to have a merchant account when using CCBill is that you are supplying CCBill with content not the end user. Thats the whole basis in which third party processors can actually do what they do.
If you have told your accountant and VAT office different then of course youll have to pay VAT. If you have told them that you are billing the end user and CCBill are collecting payment for you. Then yes you will have to pay VAT. If you or better still, your accountant who understands the whole issue explains it then you wont. Hense many of us dont have to pay VAT and you and as far as I can see, you alone do.
Do you not find it a little strange that currently only you out of everyone here has to pay VAT? Unless Im mistaken, no one else "who is actually VAT registered" here pays VAT. Does that not say something to they way your accountant understands the whole issue?
This is going to be my last post on the whole issue. As it seems that we have a difference of opinion, lets leave it there.
dangermouse
01-29-06, 10:18 PM
You havnt got a US Based Billing processor. You have a US based third party billing processor. You supply them content, they supply that to their customers. CCBill customers are NOT your customers, you dont have their credit card details, you cant take money from them, you cant return money to them. The very reason that you dont have to have a merchant account when using CCBill is that you are supplying CCBill with content not the end user. Thats the whole basis in which third party processors can actually do what they do.
If you have told your accountant and VAT office different then of course youll have to pay VAT. If you have told them that you are billing the end user and CCBill are collecting payment for you. Then yes you will have to pay VAT. If you or better still, your accountant who understands the whole issue explains it then you wont. Hense many of us dont have to pay VAT and you and as far as I can see, you alone do.
Do you not find it a little strange that currently only you out of everyone here has to pay VAT? Unless Im mistaken, no one else "who is actually VAT registered" here pays VAT. Does that not say something to they way your accountant understands the whole issue?
This is going to be my last post on the whole issue. As it seems that we have a difference of opinion, lets leave it there.
Does this apply to Paycom EU also? Wanted to get a backup processor, but if it doesn't fall under the same criteria as CCBill re VAT status then this would just muddy things on my VAT return.
Does this apply to Paycom EU also? Wanted to get a backup processor, but if it doesn't fall under the same criteria as CCBill re VAT status then this would just muddy things on my VAT return.
Number one speak to your accountant but yes it is the same criteria ac CCBill.
xcite-tv
01-30-06, 12:57 PM
maybe this will help and clear it all up for you
HERE !!!! (http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageImport_ShowContent&id=HMCE_CL_000922&propertyType=document)
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