View Full Version : Epoch and Maestro
daveydude
06-25-08, 03:40 PM
Just got this through from Epoch
:: Important Notice Regarding Maestro Transactions ::
Epoch has been advised that beginning July 1st, 2008 all online Maestro transactions will require Secure Code authentication. This email is to inform you of this change, explain to you what it means, and point out how this might affect your business.
Maestro (in some cases formerly referred to as Switch) is MasterCard International's lead debit brand offering over *540 million cardholders secure and convenient access to their deposit accounts. It is issued in over 100 countries. Epoch began accepting Switch/Maestro transactions in 2005 providing international surfers an additional payment option and increasing sales for our clients.
Maestro's implementation of Secure Code is prohibitive of recurring transactions. A surfer who joins a membership site by paying with Switch/Maestro will not be able to be rebilled automatically as each transaction must be verified through SecureCode which requires customer initiation. Please note that this new mandate only affects the Maestro debit product and does not affect any other payment type (including the Solo debit card). Epoch will continue to accept Maestro for all non-recurring transactions.
What is Secure Code?
Secure Code is the MasterCard equivalent of Visa's VBV (Verified by Visa) program. With Secure Code or VBV a surfer is prompted to enter their secret code or password at the moment of checkout when shopping online. This is a level of security used to verify that the purchaser is the actual cardholder. Merchants and retailers never see nor can they collect a cardholder's secret passcode. This differs from CVV2 or CVC2 authentication which any **Visa PCI compliant service provider may collect but is not permitted to store.
Epoch Response
To continue to remain compliant with all card association rules, Epoch will no longer support recurring transactions for Maestro. Any recurring members being billed via Maestro will not be rebilled after June 30th, 2008.
As a matter of practicality, Epoch will no longer process trials or recurring memberships for Maestro transactions. However, single shot orders (one time charge/non-recurring) will continue to process normally.
If you have any additional questions regarding the recent changes to Maestro transactions, feel free to reply to this notice or contact your account manager.
We will be switching over to CCBill as primary biller for now.
dvtimes
06-25-08, 03:58 PM
Is that not the 3 pin code on the back of the card?
dvtimes
06-25-08, 03:59 PM
i read it in full. basicly its saying with switch cards they will only do a single transaction and not re-bill.
thats going to be a pain for those who use this service.
onlytease
06-25-08, 04:59 PM
I think it is only a matter of time before Visa insist on using the Verified by Visa as well. I notice this a lot in use when using a business visa card online. I think some third party mainstream processors like Protx have now installed this by default on all their accounts.
Not a good sign for the adult industry !!
Not a good sign for the adult industry !!
To argue devil's advocate for a moment...is it a good sign?
Although as an industry, we have survived for ages on 'accidental' rebills is that A Good Thing?
(Let's put aside real rebills from sites with real fans who are completely aware they are paying for it).
Do you think that many customers than get stung from a recurring billing come back to porn sites and buy more? Or have we bitten them so hard that they are pissed off and resort to free porn/tubes/torrents?
Are we, in fact, possibly DRIVING people who might pay to this other sources people claim are ruining the industry?
Imagine if any mainstream business relied on x% of its profits being derived from customers who do not realise they are still paying for something...
Chargebacks are maintained low because surfers are either too embarrassed to call up or get dissuaded from charging back by the reps at CCBill and Epoch etc.
So, if/when everything does move to verified by visa and porn becomes more transparantly honest, maybe people will actually come back to the sites and away from the free/tube/torrents because finally we are being honest with them and treating them like customers.
I repeat, this is not what I think should happen or is happening for sure. It's me playing devil's advocate.
Thats pretty Ghey although not surprising really as alot of the larger online e-commerce sites have been made to do this also.
Like Damian said on the plus side it should decrease charge backs thanks to the added security which is good i guess but do you guys get many charge back ?
We have a quite a low charge back level hence why we NEVER pass charge backs on to our affiliates like some other sites :oldman:
Oh well nothing stays the same and there is always more than one processor to skin a cat.
dvtimes
06-25-08, 05:16 PM
To argue devil's advocate for a moment...is it a good sign?
Although as an industry, we have survived for ages on 'accidental' rebills is that A Good Thing?
(Let's put aside real rebills from sites with real fans who are completely aware they are paying for it).
Do you think that many customers than get stung from a recurring billing come back to porn sites and buy more? Or have we bitten them so hard that they are pissed off and resort to free porn/tubes/torrents?
Are we, in fact, possibly DRIVING people who might pay to this other sources people claim are ruining the industry?
Imagine if any mainstream business relied on x% of its profits being derived from customers who do not realise they are still paying for something...
Chargebacks are maintained low because surfers are either too embarrassed to call up or get dissuaded from charging back by the reps at CCBill and Epoch etc.
So, if/when everything does move to verified by visa and porn becomes more transparantly honest, maybe people will actually come back to the sites and away from the free/tube/torrents because finally we are being honest with them and treating them like customers.
I repeat, this is not what I think should happen or is happening for sure. It's me playing devil's advocate.adult sites are not the only ones who rely on re-bills.
many magazines and suh get you to trial there mags (or whatever) and offer a month cheap, in the hope you do not cancell the direct debit.
lets face it, we all se broadband, phones and so on. even when the 12 month contract is up, we still allow the re-bills and do not cansell to seek other firms.
re-bills of some form is how many firms operate.
imagine if after 12 months your mobile phone contract cancelled unless you re-applied. if this was the case you may consider trying a different firm.
Like Damian said on the plus side it should decrease charge backs thanks to the added security which is good i guess but do you guys get many charge back ?
We have a quite a low charge back level hence why we NEVER pass charge backs on to our affiliates like some other sites :oldman:
Oh well nothing stays the same and there is always more than one processor to skin a cat.
Just to clarify, I didn't say this would reduce chargebacks. I meant that I believe the industry operates at such low charge backs is because people are too embarrassed or the ones that DO work up the nerve to call the IPSP, the staff are so well trained in getting them to agree to the charges that they drop it.
There aren't many processors that will process Maestro...
adult sites are not the only ones who rely on re-bills.
many magazines and suh get you to trial there mags (or whatever) and offer a month cheap, in the hope you do not cancell the direct debit.
lets face it, we all se broadband, phones and so on. even when the 12 month contract is up, we still allow the re-bills and do not cansell to seek other firms.
re-bills of some form is how many firms operate.
imagine if after 12 months your mobile phone contract cancelled unless you re-applied. if this was the case you may consider trying a different firm.
Err you actually are now talking total shit !
None of the examples you mention work in a similar way.
adult sites are not the only ones who rely on re-bills.
many magazines and suh get you to trial there mags (or whatever) and offer a month cheap, in the hope you do not cancell the direct debit.
lets face it, we all se broadband, phones and so on. even when the 12 month contract is up, we still allow the re-bills and do not cansell to seek other firms.
re-bills of some form is how many firms operate.
imagine if after 12 months your mobile phone contract cancelled unless you re-applied. if this was the case you may consider trying a different firm.
In the adult industry, most people with paysites make a considerable amount of money from people who were unaware they were buying a re-billing service.
Obviously, there are some, who have fans. Some where people actively know they are paying every month.
So, with your excellently wrong phone analogy, people are well aware it rebills. They expect it to. If it didn't, their phone would stop working. Same with insurance.
Not the same with porn. I am not talking about EXPECTED rebills, but UNEXPECTED ones.
The point I was making is if we stop the UNEXPECTED rebills with a verified by visa thing, then the industry would be transparent, people would feel they could trust it again, and start joining more sites. Possibly.
Imagine if any mainstream business relied on x% of its profits being derived from customers who do not realise they are still paying for something...
Some months back I got caught out on an auto re-billing situation, I was fucking furious about it !
Coincidently it was porn related but the company doesn't rely soley on porn for it's income, it was indeed with "Godaddy" (You may remember my angry post one Saturday morning?)
Anyway, I had joined their "Back Order Domain Club" or whatever it was bloody called 12 months prior only to find one Saturday morning an email from them thanking me for my re-newed subscription, I flipped out, rang my card company on the Monday & it was confirmed Godaddy had indeed taken funds... I investigated further & established I hadn't un-checked a box when I joined (I honestly never even saw it) nor had I at any stage cancelled, hence the re-bill.
I blasted off to Godaddy (On the phone, more bloody expense) & finally got a refund.
I vowed NEVER to use Godaddy again in my life at that point & I am now always VERY cautious when I buy anything on-line, Im always looking for signs of an auto re-bill, I'm probably over cautious.. Godaddy owe me a weekend, that Saturday morning I was seriously pissed off & stayed that way the whole weekend.
:twocents:
Some months back I got caught out on an auto re-billing situation, I was fucking furious about it !
Coincidently it was porn related but the company doesn't rely soley on porn for it's income, it was indeed with "Godaddy" (You may remember my angry post one Saturday morning?)
Anyway, I had joined their "Back Order Domain Club" or whatever it was bloody called 12 months prior only to find one Saturday morning an email from them thanking me for my re-newed subscription, I flipped out, rang my card company on the Monday & it was confirmed Godaddy had indeed taken funds... I investigated further & established I hadn't un-checked a box when I joined (I honestly never even saw it) nor had I at any stage cancelled, hence the re-bill.
I blasted off to Godaddy (On the phone, more bloody expense) & finally got a refund.
I vowed NEVER to use Godaddy again in my life at that point & I am now always VERY cautious when I buy anything on-line, Im always looking for signs of an auto re-bill, I'm probably over cautious.. Godaddy owe me a weekend, that Saturday morning I was seriously pissed off & stayed that way the whole weekend.
:twocents:
I remember that well yes.
So what if that was porn? Would you be running out to join a new porn site?
Doubt it...
I remember that well yes.
So what if that was porn? Would you be running out to join a new porn site?
Doubt it...
Well, *maybe* but with real caution & if there was any sign of auto re-bill I'd be hitting that back button very fast.
Thursby
06-25-08, 06:46 PM
I had a similar post from WorldPay this morning. It's a stab at combatting the fraud-fest of Cardholder Not Present transactions. WorldPay pitched the following sweetener...
"When a cardholder's identity has been authenticated using these systems, the financial liability for some instances of fraud, shifts from the merchant to the card issuer - a significant benefit for merchants."
But note, "for some instances of fraud"...
Well, *maybe* but with real caution & if there was any sign of auto re-bill I'd be hitting that back button very fast.
Quad Erat Demonstratum, methinks
:)
Quad Erat Demonstratum, methinks
:)
Indeed.
;)
Quad Erat Demonstratum, methinks
:)
si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses. ;)
si tacuisses, philosophus mansisses. ;)
I had to look that up. :)
For clarification....
To the poster who says they will be switching over to CCBill for now.... that makes no sense. CCBill never even accepted Maestro/Switch at all.
The reality is that Epoch's banking relationships actually enabled us to process recurring transactions for Switch/Maestro for a year longer than our competitors. That's an additional year more of revenue just by using Epoch as your primary processor.
Be certain, the new policy for Maestro/Switch transactions is a decision from Maestro about Maestro and it's cardholders. It is not about the adult industry, or any particular processor, or any specific bank or region.
Maestro's policy does not have any affect on any other card type and is specific to the Switch product.
Epoch will continue to accept Swtich/Maestro but in the interest of remaining compliant with card regulations and to protect the best interests of all sponsored merchants, we will only take Swtich/Maestro for non-recurring transactions effective July 1st.
.
Maestro's policy does not have any affect on any other card type
bold statement, considering Maestro being part of Mastercard and all this most likley just being a test run.
dvtimes
06-25-08, 08:04 PM
For clarification....
To the poster who says they will be switching over to CCBill for now.... that makes no sense. CCBill never even accepted Maestro/Switch at all. .
yes, but you will get re-bills with ccbill.
with the Maestro/Switch option you will only get a single sale.
wonder if somone signes up as a trial, then they will only pay the tral as the full price (after a few days) will be classed as a re-bill.
yes, but you will get re-bills with ccbill.
Markham, that you? that a new kind of magic join link, which gets you rebills through a card not accepted to begin with?
I *guess* what might happen here is that those sponsors that currently offer "Maestro / Switch" as a payment option may well continue to do so but with say a 2 month initial sign up (Obviously at a higher price) as opposed to the initial one month, this may go some way to countering the effect of the change of policy.
:twocents:
To the poster who says they will be switching over to CCBill for now.... that makes no sense. CCBill never even accepted Maestro/Switch at all.
That didnt make any sense to me either.
These are extra sales that ccbill can't give you, regardless of rebills or not
To argue devil's advocate for a moment...is it a good sign?
Although as an industry, we have survived for ages on 'accidental' rebills is that A Good Thing?
(Let's put aside real rebills from sites with real fans who are completely aware they are paying for it).
Do you think that many customers than get stung from a recurring billing come back to porn sites and buy more? Or have we bitten them so hard that they are pissed off and resort to free porn/tubes/torrents?
Are we, in fact, possibly DRIVING people who might pay to this other sources people claim are ruining the industry?
Imagine if any mainstream business relied on x% of its profits being derived from customers who do not realise they are still paying for something...
Chargebacks are maintained low because surfers are either too embarrassed to call up or get dissuaded from charging back by the reps at CCBill and Epoch etc.
So, if/when everything does move to verified by visa and porn becomes more transparantly honest, maybe people will actually come back to the sites and away from the free/tube/torrents because finally we are being honest with them and treating them like customers.
I repeat, this is not what I think should happen or is happening for sure. It's me playing devil's advocate.
I definately agree on one hand. I've been saying the same today, recuring billing has been abused and may not be here much longer, that may not be a bad thing.
But I was thinking today about this and I thought about one thing I pay for. I have partner accounts at tgp's one of them is shemp. Costs me $90 for a month. Once a month it runs out and I need to renew it. But it takes me 2 -4 weeks before I bother, if I had it on recuring I 100% wouldnt cancel it. OK Im lazier than most but I wonder how many surfers are the same.... Going through the hassel of signing up again every month instead of just leaving a site to rebill will meen less sales I recon
Going through the hassel of signing up again every month instead of just leaving a site to rebill will meen less sales I recon
of course you can lower the hassle by informing the customer with a nice mail, leading him to a secure form, already filled out with all/most of the data and basically all they need to do is confirm.
in fact i see this need to confirm as a good thing, surely after manually confirming the purchase, no cunt should get away with a chargeback anymore, should they. else the card issuer would have a hard time explaining how exactly the system is more secure, if the customer still has purchases they supposedly never agreed to.
of course you can lower the hassle by informing the customer with a nice mail, leading him to a secure form, already filled out with all/most of the data and basically all they need to do is confirm.
in fact i see this need to confirm as a good thing, surely after manually confirming the purchase, no cunt should get away with a chargeback anymore, should they. else the card issuer would have a hard time explaining how exactly the system is more secure, if the customer still has purchases they supposedly never agreed to.
Yes I think it could be a good thing. But I also am pretty sure it will meen less rebills, but that also might not be a bad thing. After all its the customer who decides what he wants not the webmaster isn't it? Well probably not up till now
redwhiteandblue
06-25-08, 09:25 PM
I definately agree on one hand. I've been saying the same today, recuring billing has been abused and may not be here much longer, that may not be a bad thing.
But I was thinking today about this and I thought about one thing I pay for. I have partner accounts at tgp's one of them is shemp. Costs me $90 for a month. Once a month it runs out and I need to renew it. But it takes me 2 -4 weeks before I bother, if I had it on recuring I 100% wouldnt cancel it. OK Im lazier than most but I wonder how many surfers are the same.... Going through the hassel of signing up again every month instead of just leaving a site to rebill will meen less sales I recon
What if Shemp offered you a three-months-for-the-price-of-two or four-months-for-the-price-of-three non recurring option?
What if Shemp offered you a three-months-for-the-price-of-two or four-months-for-the-price-of-three non recurring option?
Financially it would make sense, but Im not sure Id be bothered, its so not something I consider or think about, I pay it, it costs me fuck all, I dont even use it much any more. I get around to it when I can be bothered. But the point is, if I was on recuring I 100% wouldnt cancel it. But at the moment it takes me 2-4 weeks every time it runs out to renew it.
If I could be arsed I would work out how much he loses because of it. But I cant so I wont
adultbusiness
06-25-08, 09:49 PM
I personally think recurring hemp is a great idea.......
redwhiteandblue
06-25-08, 09:57 PM
Financially it would make sense, but Im not sure Id be bothered, its so not something I consider or think about, I pay it, it costs me fuck all, I dont even use it much any more. I get around to it when I can be bothered. But the point is, if I was on recuring I 100% wouldnt cancel it. But at the moment it takes me 2-4 weeks every time it runs out to renew it.
If I could be arsed I would work out how much he loses because of it. But I cant so I wont
Yep, well what I was getting at was that perhaps we can mitigate the loss of the recurring billing option by selling several months membership at once, and do that by offering somthing that seems like a good deal, even if the punter didn't actually want to join for that length of time. A bit like when Tescos offers you two pies for the price of one, they probably don't make much money on the second pie, and you probably won't eat it anyway, but they just do it to get your money for the first one.
I personally think recurring hemp is a great idea.......
Yup its all down to the new vending machines :cheer:
http://www.gadgetic.com/wp-content/gallery/gadgetic/medical_marijuana_atm.jpg
To be honest I don't give a fuck, my Giro arrives tomorrow so I'm too excited to worry about this boring shite
Thursby
06-25-08, 11:37 PM
To be honest I don't give a fuck, my Giro arrives tomorrow so I'm too excited to worry about this boring shite
Per Ardua ad Astra!
Per Ardua ad Astra!
Dar De dar Calibra
Thursby
06-25-08, 11:47 PM
Dar De dar Calibra
A Vauxhall man!
A Vauxhall man!
A hot cool van
daveydude
06-26-08, 12:58 PM
For clarification....
To the poster who says they will be switching over to CCBill for now.... that makes no sense. CCBill never even accepted Maestro/Switch at all.
Hi Rand - thanks for the response.
The operative part of my post was "for now". We don't have single billing options set up so we're flicking the switch over to CCBill (easily done in NATS) for now while we reorganise our Epoch billing codes & add some single purchase options over all our sites.
Hi Rand - thanks for the response.
The operative part of my post was "for now". We don't have single billing options set up so we're flicking the switch over to CCBill (easily done in NATS) for now while we reorganise our Epoch billing codes & add some single purchase options over all our sites.
Right on. Please let me know if I can help with anything.
FYI - Epoch's SmartForms won't display Switch/Maestro as an option for recurring memberships or trials. If you are going to make some changes, we can show you ways to maximize your sales by minimizing friction to the payment form. Talk to your account rep or drop me a line.
daveydude
06-27-08, 02:25 AM
Right on. Please let me know if I can help with anything.
FYI - Epoch's SmartForms won't display Switch/Maestro as an option for recurring memberships or trials. If you are going to make some changes, we can show you ways to maximize your sales by minimizing friction to the payment form. Talk to your account rep or drop me a line.
Will do. If we can work out a way within Epoch / NATS to get non recurring Maestro options showing up alongside the regular cc options on the join form that would be just peachy.
In the meantime I'm just enoying the extra revenue from CCBill's regional billing ;) Can you guys do anything simlar?
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