View Full Version : Torrent sites could be comming to an end
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/att-and-other-isps-may-be-getting-ready-to-filter/index.html
ISP's acting as police is not a good thing though imho, where can it all end
http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/01/08/att-and-other-isps-may-be-getting-ready-to-filter/index.html
ISP's acting as police is not a good thing though imho, where can it all end
In stark contrast:
we learned today that the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) has finally taken notice of Comcast's indiscretion as well. According to FCC Chairman Kevin Martin, a group of consumer advocates and legal scholars have asked the commission to look into Comcast discriminating against specific types of data (read: Bit Torrent). The groups have also requested the FCC to fine Comcast $195,000 per affected subscribers. In case you were wondering, at last report, Comcast has 9.1 million subscribers.
http://www.downloadsquad.com/2008/01/08/comcast-could-receive-hefty-fcc-fine-for-throttling-bit-torrent/
--
There are lots of legitimate use for P2P protocol. Unix distributions rely on it for getting their software out, many many games companies use it for patches for games, indy film companies put out films via P2P, unknown/unsigned bands also use it. For an ISP to decide what and what isn't acceptable protocols on their network is a VERY VERY dangerous thing.
Pushcube
01-10-08, 11:15 AM
BT have been using packet shaping for months now, knowing BT they will probably try to slap a charge on different protocols before long :geek:
Tough one, but atm I think it's a good thing/idea. Is it more a case of covering their own back though - possible that the big media companies frustrated with a lack of end results from going after the torrent/sharing sites are contemplating targetting the ISPs of what I presume are their target market? No matter how much you are making, if you are 'losing' (obviously not all sharers would have spent $) millions/billions each year due to unauthorised sharing, that's got to piss you right the fuck off, and you dig deeper as and when you hit each obstacle when trying to combat it.
Tough one, but atm I think it's a good thing/idea
So you think it's a good idea for ISPs to be given the power to decide what types of traffic are allowed?
Interesting idea.
So today it's the perfectly legal bittorrent protocol that is blocked. All the people that rely on that to distribute their perfectly legal content are stopped.
What gets blocked next? Porn?
Don't you see what a thoroughly dangerous precedent this sets?
It's a start.
Not sure how many ISPs will misuse the system but they will
probably find a way to increase their pricesas Jel said.
The fingerprinting technolog was started by Youtube wasn't it?
It's a start.
Not sure how many ISPs will misuse the system but they will
probably find a way to increase their pricesas Jel said.
The fingerprinting technolog was started by Youtube wasn't it?
Traffic shaping is nothing to do with finger printing.
It looks at the port and the type of file.
And it's not about mis-using a system, it's about giving permission to block a perfectly legal protocol that many businesses (ie any *nis distro) utterly relies on.
And the precedent for censorship this sets. As people working in porn, that electronic freedom is something I would have thought should be fought for, not against.
So you think it's a good idea for ISPs to be given the power to decide what types of traffic are allowed?
Interesting idea.
So today it's the perfectly legal bittorrent protocol that is blocked. All the people that rely on that to distribute their perfectly legal content are stopped.
What gets blocked next? Porn?
Don't you see what a thoroughly dangerous precedent this sets?
Probably not, no.
Pushcube
01-10-08, 11:37 AM
Quote from the first article first it will be ‘copyrighted’ materials, then ‘perverted’ materials, then ’subversive’ materials. That's a very scary thought as the 'encryption' (MSE/PE) used for torrent files is about as secure as the doors on a clowns car as it is, so they can already see what it is you're downloading with little effort. How they will be able to 'tag' movies/porn/latest ubuntu/whatever etc I'm not sure, but you can bet it'll be a sweaty little fella in some office dungeon that will make the decision.
And the precedent for censorship this sets. As people working in porn, that electronic freedom is something I would have thought should be fought for, not against.
I know fuck all about tech stuff, so saw this part:
the time was right to start filtering for copyrighted content
and presumed that rather than a catch-all block of whatever, the techy nerd peeps would find a way to sniff out offending copyrighted material.
My bad.
Traffic shaping is nothing to do with finger printing.
It looks at the port and the type of file.
And it's not about mis-using a system, it's about giving permission to block a perfectly legal protocol that many businesses (ie any *nis distro) utterly relies on.
And the precedent for censorship this sets. As people working in porn, that electronic freedom is something I would have thought should be fought for, not against.
So why do they mention it?
"Mr. Cicconi said that AT&T has been talking to technology companies, and members of the MPAA and RIAA, for the last six months about implementing digital fingerprinting techniques on the network level."
Seriouly, thanks for the techy lesson.
If it's legal why would they block it? or could that construed as mis-use?
Quote from the first article . That's a very scary thought as the 'encryption' (MSE/PE) used for torrent files is about as secure as the doors on a clowns car as it is, so they can already see what it is you're downloading with little effort. How they will be able to 'tag' movies/porn/latest ubuntu/whatever etc I'm not sure, but you can bet it'll be a sweaty little fella in some office dungeon that will make the decision.
Thing is though, isn't it illegal to share/distribute copyrighted material(s)? As far as I know porn isn't illegal yet, and like most 'sky is falling, censorship is creeping in, thought police are taking over, etc' bandwagons, it's speculation to assume that because an entity is thinking about being pro-active on one issue, the same entity is going to start getting all Victorian on us. There is market demand for porn, what business is going to turn away clients looking for a legal product?
Pushcube
01-10-08, 12:15 PM
Thing is though, isn't it illegal to share/distribute copyrighted material(s)? As far as I know porn isn't illegal yet, and like most 'sky is falling, censorship is creeping in, thought police are taking over, etc' bandwagons, it's speculation to assume that because an entity is thinking about being pro-active on one issue, the same entity is going to start getting all Victorian on us. There is market demand for porn, what business is going to turn away clients looking for a legal product?
Typed a big reply to this but I started to ramble a bit, so tried to shorten it.. (hope it makes sense)
Yep its totally illegal to distribute copyrighted material, but I think it's the idea behind it of them deciding to throttle the protocol and that is what some people would see as a form of censorship. They're deciding to limit their customers connection without the customers knowledge, such as 'You can download it this way (with our Digitally Tagged proprietary protocol goodness that we're working on), but if you try to do it this way you have to pay the penalty of very slow data rates'. So they could (theoretically) use the same system with a porn site providing movies for download. As in, they see you downloading a couple of full-length movies a day, they could limit your connection (under their Fair Use agreement) so making downloading a single movie take a very long time and who'd want to pay for that imo.
While I'd agree they need to do something to limit the effect Bittorrent traffic has on their networks, I would strongly disagree with them being able to tell me what I can download and cant, and how.
Typed a big reply to this but I started to ramble a bit, so tried to shorten it.. (hope it makes sense)
Yep its totally illegal to distribute copyrighted material, but I think it's the idea behind it of them deciding to throttle the protocol and that is what some people would see as a form of censorship. They're deciding to limit their customers connection without the customers knowledge, such as 'You can download it this way (with our Digitally Tagged proprietary protocol goodness that we're working on), but if you try to do it this way you have to pay the penalty of very slow data rates'. So they could (theoretically) use the same system with a porn site providing movies for download. As in, they see you downloading a couple of full-length movies a day, they could limit your connection (under their Fair Use agreement) so making downloading a single movie take a very long time and who'd want to pay for that imo.
While I'd agree they need to do something to limit the effect Bittorrent traffic has on their networks, I would strongly disagree with them being able to tell me what I can download and cant, and how.
Fuck me that post is more than your usual :lmao2:
Pushcube
01-10-08, 12:20 PM
hehe yea :D
Thing is though, isn't it illegal to share/distribute copyrighted material(s)? As far as I know porn isn't illegal yet, and like most 'sky is falling, censorship is creeping in, thought police are taking over, etc' bandwagons, it's speculation to assume that because an entity is thinking about being pro-active on one issue, the same entity is going to start getting all Victorian on us. There is market demand for porn, what business is going to turn away clients looking for a legal product?
I agree.
Like Damian I was worried about the censorship issue. But to be honest unlike his reasoning, mine is just commercial. I dont want my business effected, but don't see stopping illegal sharing is going to end up with porn being stopped. I actually couldn't really give a hoot about ISP's censoring otherwise, Im not a great lover of free speech and certainly do believe in censoring. I don't believe everyone should have access to whatever they want for some higher moral reason.
The net is like a cess pit of scammers, spammers, theives, and perverts and I'll be glad when it is cleaned up. Which it will be. A good start would be to unplug Russia, Africa and most of Eastern Europe. This as far as I can see is a step in the right direction for our industry.
MelnAdam
01-10-08, 01:19 PM
I think that the isp's will follow the approach mobile companies have with accessing adult via mobiles. It'll be locked down until you request it to be unlocked.
Completely blocking P2P just won't work simply because it does have legit uses.
But only time will tell ..........
Pushcube
01-10-08, 01:20 PM
Any ISP could stop Bittorrent dead in tracks right now if they wanted by simply filtering out the protocol on their side of the users connection, but I don't think that's the main point in my opionion. I think the worrying thing about the articale was the point is that the ISP was the one who decided to do this, no law enforcement agency asked them to, so they took a sledgehammer to the 'problem' and throttled a 100% legal thing.
An ISP deciding these things by itself could lead to various consequences down the road, and by then it would be too late to do much about it. Like say you run a porn site, for example, that has images/movies on it that an ISP deemed unsuitable (but the content is perfectly legal in the Country, even the next State if it America, you're hosted in), so they block all their customers from it (even if you use a proxy, you're ISP knows were your going to/from as the packets get routed through their network before they arrive at your machine after all) thus censoring their customers for you site. Or something similar to 'Or customers can see sites containing XYZ but every site with ABC is blocked network wide'. I think the ISP's deciding anything by themselves is a bad idea. This is starting to ramble again so I'll stop here.
PS I'd add China to the list of countries to unplug. :devil:
thats no good I'm on AT&T
Any ISP could stop Bittorrent dead in tracks right now if they wanted by simply filtering out the protocol on their side of the users connection, but I don't think that's the main point in my opionion. I think the worrying thing about the articale was the point is that the ISP was the one who decided to do this, no law enforcement agency asked them to, so they took a sledgehammer to the 'problem' and throttled a 100% legal thing.
An ISP deciding these things by itself could lead to various consequences down the road, and by then it would be too late to do much about it. Like say you run a porn site, for example, that has images/movies on it that an ISP deemed unsuitable (but the content is perfectly legal in the Country, even the next State if it America, you're hosted in), so they block all their customers from it (even if you use a proxy, you're ISP knows were your going to/from as the packets get routed through their network before they arrive at your machine after all) thus censoring their customers for you site. Or something similar to 'Or customers can see sites containing XYZ but every site with ABC is blocked network wide'. I think the ISP's deciding anything by themselves is a bad idea. This is starting to ramble again so I'll stop here.
PS I'd add China to the list of countries to unplug. :devil:
You really are getting the hang of this posting lark:P
and some good info in the posts as well:noway2:
Pushcube
01-10-08, 03:45 PM
Yea, I know I'm terrible with my ' :lmao2: ' only posts, but I can't really comment on anything adult related at the moment as I'm only starting out and learning as I go, so I'm only able to post decent length replies in threads I know a bit about the subject of at this time :D
Cardinal_Sin
01-10-08, 04:18 PM
The net is like a cess pit of scammers, spammers, theives, and perverts and I'll be glad when it is cleaned up. Which it will be. A good start would be to unplug Russia, Africa and most of Eastern Europe. This as far as I can see is a step in the right direction for our industry.
The biggest scammers and spammers come from America -
The biggest scammers and spammers come from America -
They dont, but even if they did, they still supply the consumers unlike, Africa, Russia etc.
A few legitimate uses of P2P that would be stopped.
Skype
Firefox
Linux distributions
Video game patches (world of warcraft etc)
Amazon C3
Gutenberg project
etree
Question:
How do you tell the difference between a legitimate packet and
an illegal packet?
So why do they mention it?
"Mr. Cicconi said that AT&T has been talking to technology companies, and members of the MPAA and RIAA, for the last six months about implementing digital fingerprinting techniques on the network level."
Seriouly, thanks for the techy lesson.
If it's legal why would they block it? or could that construed as mis-use?
OK, lesson one. Ignore most things the MPAA (http://techdirt.com/articles/20071022/020841.shtml) and RIAA (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/09/09/the_riaa_sees_the_face/) say about anything.
:)
The fingerprinting, if done on all packets of data, would require RIDICULOUS processing. Think about it. The original idea for fingerprinting technology is for UGC sites to be able to stop the posting of copyrighted material. This is a great idea. To suggest you could somehow do that at an ISP level for all internet traffic is comical.
Also, the fingerprinting works by looking at the video file and analysing it. With a torrent you are not downloading the movie file, but rather thousands of small pieces you then have to stitch back together inorder to make the movie file. So, even if you slapped every processor in the world into an ISP, the packet data it would be looking at would be a small file, on it's own, not a movie. If that makes sense.
All the ISPs are doing is throttling traffic to the common ports used by a protocol, and examining the file type - a torrent file is very easy to recognise.
Question:
How do you tell the difference between a legitimate packet and
an illegal packet?
You can't. This is why blocking it all is not a sensible solution.
OK. I have learn't something.Thanks
The biggest scammers and spammers come from America -
It can't be true or can it? Even if you say that there are bunch of people who come and say that when you look at ratios then eastern europe is much worse than US. Although US maybe brings in millions of spammers/scammers and eastern europe few hundred thousand.
If anyone is really interested about real stats and not just accusing eastern europe & Russia for all the world problems then you might want to check lists like this:
http://www.spamhaus.org/statistics/countries.lasso
Now as you can see Russia is 4th and none of the eastern europe countries is nowhere to be found.
Another list
http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/
Oh look you can even see few eastern european countries in that list!
I was going to post the rokso list, but erots beat me to it. :)
-N
I was going to post that I was going to post the rokso list, but nekrom beat me to it. :)
I was going to post that I was going to post the rokso list, but nekrom beat me to it. :)
Problem is you find that it can lead to doing the same thing(s) twice.
-N
Paul Markham
01-12-08, 12:16 PM
There are lots of legitimate use for P2P protocol. Unix distributions rely on it for getting their software out, many many games companies use it for patches for games, indy film companies put out films via P2P, unknown/unsigned bands also use it. For an ISP to decide what and what isn't acceptable protocols on their network is a VERY VERY dangerous thing.
Very good point.
The legitimate use is fine, there is another thing to consider. If the illigitimate use grows will you pay for it. Or should the people using it pay for it?
Should the people stealing property be allowed to continue to steal property? If so can you please give me access to what ever you do so I can steal it please. I do not agree with it so don't ask for me to return the favor. ;)
Paul Markham
01-12-08, 12:19 PM
So you think it's a good idea for ISPs to be given the power to decide what types of traffic are allowed?
Interesting idea.
So today it's the perfectly legal bittorrent protocol that is blocked. All the people that rely on that to distribute their perfectly legal content are stopped.
What gets blocked next? Porn?
Don't you see what a thoroughly dangerous precedent this sets?
If I don't want you in my shop I can ban you. If WH Smith don't want to sell porn they don't have to. Why shouldn't ISP's have the same rights?
If I don't want you in my shop I can ban you. If WH Smith don't want to sell porn they don't have to. Why shouldn't ISP's have the same rights?
They do and I think they will too.
Paul Markham
01-12-08, 12:28 PM
If you believe in freedom, then you have to support the ISPs in what they are doing.
Please go think about it if you don't see it.
maildodge
01-12-08, 12:55 PM
Quicker and easier to use Newsgroups! Or Rapidshare etc.
It can't be true or can it?
of course it can.
first of all a spammer is not necessarily a scammer. both links you posted talk about spamming, so how exactly did you extract the scammer numbers from it? additionally the country list goes by server location, not webmaster location. how did you filter out where the webmasters are located?
serious spamming is big business, still is. nothing the masses crawling out from under eastern block rocks can even think, let alone set up. as you just proved yourself. the US isn't bringing in millions of spammers, it brings in a small number of big boys who do a shitload.
of course, if you have real numbers to prove all the payment processors and pay sites who disallow eastern blockers as affiliates or customers unless they are referred or can present themselves well, you might be on to something really big here. please go ahead. :)
Quicker and easier to use Newsgroups! Or Rapidshare etc.
Nice tip ! Thanks :) Any other suggestions where a good place to steal porn is?
of course it can.
first of all a spammer is not necessarily a scammer. both links you posted talk about spamming, so how exactly did you extract the scammer numbers from it? additionally the country list goes by server location, not webmaster location. how did you filter out where the webmasters are located?
serious spamming is big business, still is. nothing the masses crawling out from under eastern block rocks can even think, let alone set up. as you just proved yourself. the US isn't bringing in millions of spammers, it brings in a small number of big boys who do a shitload.
of course, if you have real numbers to prove all the payment processors and pay sites who disallow eastern blockers as affiliates or customers unless they are referred or can present themselves well, you might be on to something really big here. please go ahead. :)
You know, it doesn't really matter. If you are interested about fraud specifically then you can go and look up Verisign or some other fraud reports and you can still find pretty much the same picture.
Usually you have to prove that somebody is guilty not the other way around. I have seen lots of talk how eastern european countries are the source of all evil but no proof other than some people having attacks against their servers from Ukraine or what not... which obviously proves nothing on the world scale.
I'm very well aware of the fact that many paysites don't allow eastern european countries to join. If paysites would follow the real statistics when it comes to online fraud, would you see them banning US or UK?
Obviously you are going to continue with your racist shit how everyone in US is highly intelligent and all the eastern european guys just have big dicks and no brains so here are some links for you to read.
http://www.card-fraud.com/merchant/OnlineFraudStatistics.html
http://www.ic3.gov/media/annualreports.aspx
http://www.rsa.com/phishing_reports.aspx/
http://www.ectnews.com/story/40303.html
http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197002150
You know, it doesn't really matter.
that's why your reply is so long, i suppose.
If you are interested about fraud specifically then you can go and look up Verisign or some other fraud reports and you can still find pretty much the same picture.
yes, i know. that's why i set you straight, just becasue you view numbers and post links to them doesn't mean you actually understand them, as you proved just fine.
Usually you have to prove that somebody is guilty not the other way around.
you confuse legal systems of various places with business. in business i decide who i deal with. if i decide for me that you are not worth to deal with, be that because i have reason to think you are a scammer or simply because i dislike your haircut, it's done, simple as that.
I have seen lots of talk how eastern european countries are the source of all evil but no proof other than some people having attacks against their servers from Ukraine or what not... which obviously proves nothing on the world scale.
really. so the attack from a ukraininan server (just to stick with YOUR example) proves nothing, yet attacks from US servers prove US webmasters are in the majority amongst scammers and spammers. how would that work, explain in a reasonable amount of detail, thank you.
try to avoid mixing up amount of damage and number of peopel trying it on, just because the smaller group manages larger scaled impacts.
I'm very well aware of the fact that many paysites don't allow eastern european countries to join.
well done in stating the obious.
If paysites would follow the real statistics when it comes to online fraud, would you see them banning US or UK?
so you are saying the numbers, gained through experience, are all wrong? would care to explain how your links show the real stistics and the numbers paysite owners see for themselves are not real?
Obviously you are going to continue with your racist shit how everyone in US is highly intelligent
i'd be interested where exactly you ever saw me suggesting anything anywhere near that. please, make my day.
and all the eastern european guys just have big dicks
is that have big dicks or are big dicks?
here are some links for you to read.
so much for it not mattering, eh? :gaylords:
Oh fun!
that's why your reply is so long, i suppose.
???
yes, i know. that's why i set you straight, just becasue you view numbers and post links to them doesn't mean you actually understand them, as you proved just fine.
What does that mean other than that you are just being an asshole?
you confuse legal systems of various places with business. in business i decide who i deal with. if i decide for me that you are not worth to deal with, be that because i have reason to think you are a scammer or simply because i dislike your haircut, it's done, simple as that.
If you don't want to deal with me then thats fine, but if you wrongly accuse certain people in something then you are not far away from being a racist.
really. so the attack from a ukraininan server (just to stick with YOUR example) proves nothing, yet attacks from US servers prove US webmasters are in the majority amongst scammers and spammers. how would that work, explain in a reasonable amount of detail, thank you.
try to avoid mixing up amount of damage and number of peopel trying it on, just because the smaller group manages larger scaled impacts.
Sorry if you didn't get it but I'll try to explain it again then:
If some paysite owner is saying that 99% of fraudlent signups come from Ukraine then it means nothing.
1. We don't know his volume of traffic, sign ups.
2. Statistically one paysite means nothing, unless of course there only is only one paysite.
Now if huge public company that provides security tools and e-commerece solutions for millions of websites makes statistics about online fraud then it does matter.
It doesn't matter if big damage or small damage is done, it is the overall statistics and you don't see many eastern european countries making into that list.
so you are saying the numbers, gained through experience, are all wrong? would care to explain how your links show the real stistics and the numbers paysite owners see for themselves are not real?
I know paysite owners who say otherwise. What are you trying to do here, state that I'm clueless because I don't own a paysite? I do communicate you know and I also have proof from publications/companies that reveal trends of online fraud.
Regarding the metaphores in the end. Tone of your response suggest like people in US inflict big damage to the internet while eastern europe is filled with dumb people who all do small damage:
serious spamming is big business, still is. nothing the masses crawling out from under eastern block rocks can even think, let alone set up. as you just proved yourself. the US isn't bringing in millions of spammers, it brings in a small number of big boys who do a shitload.
Thats all very nice story but you really have no idea what you are talking about.
And you still managed to continue with your racist jokes:
is that have big dicks or are big dicks?
Very nice..
As much as this debate is interesting can someone explain to me
the racists remarks that have been made please.
Oh fun!
yes, you are. not intentionally though, i presume.
???
where did we lose you, sweetheart?
What does that mean other than that you are just being an asshole?
blimey, you were cornered fast, weren't you, already resorting to name calling rather than arguments.
i shall put it in simple words, for you: erots sees numbers. erots posts links to those numbers, for all of use to see. erots doesn't understand what the numbers are telling him. -HF points that out to erots.
If you don't want to deal with me then thats fine, but if you wrongly accuse certain people in something then you are not far away from being a racist.
again, you confuse terms. if i was to call all buddhists fat cunts, that wouldn't be racist, as there is no buddhist race. to the best of my knowledge there also is no such thing as an 'eastern european' race.
now if you care to explain why you accuse me of accusing someone wrongly. let me know what is wrong in your little world.
Sorry if you didn't get it but I'll try to explain it again then:
that's very kind of you.
If some paysite owner is saying that 99% of fraudlent signups come from Ukraine then it means nothing.
would you care to define 'some webmaster'. just so we know what numbers players like you deal with, when they argue such cases.
more to the point, it means everything. it means that their experience is affiliates from a certain area cause them problems. if you deny that, you have a serious issue.
if they then decide not to accept people from that area, they are totally within their right.
fact. not up for discussion.
Now if huge public company that provides security tools and e-commerece solutions for millions of websites makes statistics about online fraud then it does matter.
It doesn't matter if big damage or small damage is done, it is the overall statistics and you don't see many eastern european countries making into that list.
see and that is where you prove how little you know. that list tells you where the server is located, not the webmaster. this is the last time i am typing that out for you BTW, if you don't get it this time, tough tits.
the usual lot you hang out with over at netplonk hosts in the US mostly, so of course they would all be counted as US based, if they were making it on that list.
I know paysite owners who say otherwise.
and of course they are all wrong and you have it all worked out. priceless.
What are you trying to do here, state that I'm clueless because I don't own a paysite?
if the shoe fits. about the clueless part, that is. many people have no paysite and know better than you.
I do communicate you know and I also have proof from publications/companies that reveal trends of online fraud.
then PLEASE share it already. explain how you know the webmaster of a website hosted in country A is indeed from country B. until then, you know zilch.
Regarding the metaphores in the end. Tone of your response suggest like people in US inflict big damage to the internet while eastern europe is filled with dumb people who all do small damage:
you really need to work on your comprehension skills. until then debating with you is pretty pointless.
BTW, you said i was stating "how everyone in US is highly intelligent" - still no example for that at hand, have you?
Thats all very nice story but you really have no idea what you are talking about.
you are free to prove me wrong. i asked you to in the previous post, you failed to do so until now. not surprisingly.
And you still managed to continue with your racist jokes:
again, you and your issues with terms. first of all there still is no 'eastern european' race. unless you again have proof which you ain't sharing?
and there was no joke, i was trying to clarify. trying to learn from your huge amount of knowledge and wisdom is all.
Very nice..
i know i am, darling.
now let's get down to some business. i shall repeat the questions you avoided:
the attack from a ukraininan server (just to stick with YOUR example) proves nothing, yet attacks from US servers prove US webmasters are in the majority amongst scammers and spammers. how would that work, explain in a reasonable amount of detail, thank you.
you are saying the numbers, gained through experience, are all wrong? would care to explain how your links show the real stistics and the numbers paysite owners see for themselves are not real?
and finally, seeing you communicate with the real players and have all the numbers crunched and at hand, surely YOU can make these issues go away: http://www.beerandbollocks.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15957
go on, sort that mess, you have proof the processors must be wrong, so conquer the world already. surely if you have proof, they would be stupid not to broaden their sources of income.
disclaimer: i'll most likely fail to bring up the can-be-arsed levels to show up your errors once more, if your inevitable reply doesn't contain anything new or substantial. please do not see that as a personal thing.
As much as this debate is interesting can someone explain to me
the racists remarks that have been made please.
No specific racist remarks really but it is the attitude -HF takes when it comes to people living in eastern europe.
nothing the masses crawling out from under eastern block rocks can even think, let alone set up. as you just proved yourself.
(Commenting my metaphor)
is that have big dicks or are big dicks?
Apparently I'm part of big clueless mass that can't accomplish anything. But then again we are skilled at scamming some paysites... even so much that we are blocked by country.
So lets continue.
blimey, you were cornered fast, weren't you, already resorting to name calling rather than arguments.
i shall put it in simple words, for you: erots sees numbers. erots posts links to those numbers, for all of use to see. erots doesn't understand what the numbers are telling him. -HF points that out to erots.
But you didn't really point out anything.. did you? You haven't explained anything, you just let out hot air in my direction for some reason.
Here is a classic example:
again, you confuse terms. if i was to call all buddhists fat cunts, that wouldn't be racist, as there is no buddhist race. to the best of my knowledge there also is no such thing as an 'eastern european' race.
now if you care to explain why you accuse me of accusing someone wrongly. let me know what is wrong in your little world.
I understand that you like to be right but here is a Wikipedia page about word "racist" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist . I really hope that you don't question Wikipedia because you want to be right and want to look it up from Oxford dictionary instead :)
would you care to define 'some webmaster'. just so we know what numbers players like you deal with, when they argue such cases.
more to the point, it means everything. it means that their experience is affiliates from a certain area cause them problems. if you deny that, you have a serious issue.
if they then decide not to accept people from that area, they are totally within their right.
fact. not up for discussion.
I don't really remember one of those webmasters who claimed that he is being only scammed by eastern european people, but it doesn't matter in this case.
You don't really understand the issue here or you don't want to understand the issue. I'm totally ok with people not accepting affiliates from certain area, never said I wasn't.
The problem is when somebody suggest that you should block certain country because they had problems with this country. Saying something like that is strongly biased and definately up for discussion.
see and that is where you prove how little you know. that list tells you where the server is located, not the webmaster. this is the last time i am typing that out for you BTW, if you don't get it this time, tough tits.
the usual lot you hang out with over at netplonk hosts in the US mostly, so of course they would all be counted as US based, if they were making it on that list.
I'm very well aware of how the internet works, no need to explain it. It is clear that you didn't even check any of these links or even maybe understand what you are talking about.
Do you really think that credit card fraud is tracked down using only IP of the fraudster? Hell even in our little Estonia they know that scammers use proxies or botnets and track them down to their real location.
I know that you have issues with "netplonk" but I don't represent this board in any way and it has nothing to do with the issue, which makes me think that your issues with me are related with me posting to "netplonk"?
and of course they are all wrong and you have it all worked out. priceless.
No, what I meant to say was that there are paysite owners who have confirmed that eastern european domination if online fraud industry is a myth.
then PLEASE share it already. explain how you know the webmaster of a website hosted in country A is indeed from country B. until then, you know zilch.
Sorry, I don't get it. Maybe you should really go read these links and do some research.
you really need to work on your comprehension skills. until then debating with you is pretty pointless.
BTW, you said i was stating "how everyone in US is highly intelligent" - still no example for that at hand, have you?
You were comparing US and eastern european people when it comes to ability to run big spam operations.
you are free to prove me wrong. i asked you to in the previous post, you failed to do so until now. not surprisingly.
Exacly what do I need to prove you besides that you really really want to show how wrong I am? I don't really follow you anymore, shouldn't you be proving that I'm wrong instead of just trying to make me look like clueless.
again, you and your issues with terms. first of all there still is no 'eastern european' race. unless you again have proof which you ain't sharing?
and there was no joke, i was trying to clarify. trying to learn from your huge amount of knowledge and wisdom is all.
lolol
you are saying the numbers, gained through experience, are all wrong? would care to explain how your links show the real stistics and the numbers paysite owners see for themselves are not real?
Like I said, paysite owners confirmed that eastern europe isn't as special compared to other parts of world.
and finally, seeing you communicate with the real players and have all the numbers crunched and at hand, surely YOU can make these issues go away: http://www.beerandbollocks.com/forum...ad.php?t=15957
go on, sort that mess, you have proof the processors must be wrong, so conquer the world already. surely if you have proof, they would be stupid not to broaden their sources of income.
Actually Russia is not really considered as eastern europe.
disclaimer: i'll most likely fail to bring up the can-be-arsed levels to show up your errors once more, if your inevitable reply doesn't contain anything new or substantial. please do not see that as a personal thing.
Awww. Maybe you should read your sig.
But you didn't really point out anything.. did you? You haven't explained anything, you just let out hot air in my direction for some reason.
i refer you to my previous suggestion that you improve your comprehension skills. maybe a better grasp of the language you try to argue in might help as well.
I understand that you like to be right but here is a Wikipedia page about word "racist" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racist . I really hope that you don't question Wikipedia because you want to be right and want to look it up from Oxford dictionary instead :)
anyone basing arguments on wikipedia, a compilation of half-knowledge, is a joke to begin with. funnily the link does not even suppoprt your wish that there was either a buddhist or a eastern european race.
apart from that, you take a good try in diverting the thread from the actual points. well done.
I don't really remember one of those webmasters who claimed that he is being only scammed by eastern european people, but it doesn't matter in this case.
why does it not matter? what makes this 'case' special? and was it a webmaster or a paysite owner?
You don't really understand the issue here or you don't want to understand the issue. I'm totally ok with people not accepting affiliates from certain area, never said I wasn't.
no, you just whine and make up numbers in your mind.
also, you said
Usually you have to prove that somebody is guilty not the other way around.
you are totally ok but complain they have rules in place to execute the measurements. contradict yourself much?
The problem is when somebody suggest that you should block certain country because they had problems with this country. Saying something like that is strongly biased and definately up for discussion.
no. it is not in the least.
see, the real problem is you think within the limits of your own setup. a real company doesn't have the time to deal with problem cases all the time. locking certain groups out and losing some turnover may be way more cost effective than allowing them in having to monitor all the time.
I'm very well aware of how the internet works, no need to explain it.
you sound awfully confident about that.
It is clear that you didn't even check any of these links
was it that obvious. good.
Do you really think that credit card fraud is tracked down using only IP of the fraudster?
how are spammers comitting CC fraud? again you mix up apples and oranges.
Hell even in our little Estonia they know that scammers use proxies or botnets and track them down to their real location.
[insert well impressed and cheering smilie]
I know that you have issues with "netplonk"
again something you believe to know, it's so cute with you.
it has nothing to do with the issue, which makes me think that your issues with me are related with me posting to "netplonk"?
i have no issues with you, don't think too highly of yourself. :)
i have issues with what you say. contrary to you, i have not needed to resort to name calling.
No, what I meant to say was that there are paysite owners who have confirmed that eastern european domination if online fraud industry is a myth.
good on them, they are free to take on everyone they want. just as those that decided against it are free to do it their way.
Sorry, I don't get it. Maybe you should really go read these links and do some research.
or maybe not, seeing you cannot explain any of your supposed proven points anyway.
You were comparing US and eastern european people when it comes to ability to run big spam operations.
and you were accusing US people to be the biggest spammers and scammers. so surely you too must think they do something better? ;)
unless you finally got it that server location is not necessarily the webmaster location.
Exacly what do I need to prove you
simply start with the claims you make. it is as easy as that. if you can.
lolol
you have no knowledge i could learn from then? pity.
Like I said, paysite owners confirmed that eastern europe isn't as special compared to other parts of world.
and we have your word for it, too. :D
Actually Russia is not really considered as eastern europe.
as far as Russia being part of Europe, let the Ural Mountains be a hint. even your preferred knowledge base wikipedia will tell you something about it.
Awww. Maybe you should read your sig.
i do, everytime i read upset your replies. :)
now after all your side tracking, are you ever going to post something on topic, with some substance, too, perhaps? providing evidence for all your claims even? surprise me!
i refer you to my previous suggestion that you improve your comprehension skills. maybe a better grasp of the language you try to argue in might help as well.
Again no effort made to point out the real truth that I'm obviously missing.
anyone basing arguments on wikipedia, a compilation of half-knowledge, is a joke to begin with. funnily the link does not even suppoprt your wish that there was either a buddhist or a eastern european race.
apart from that, you take a good try in diverting the thread from the actual points. well done.
Lolol. I figured you say something like that about using Wikipedia, so I'll just write it out here:
Racial discrimination is treating people differently through a process of social division into categories not necessarily related to "race".
But really come on, you know what I mean you just want to show how wrong I am, do I really have to debate over each word with you?
why does it not matter? what makes this 'case' special? and was it a webmaster or a paysite owner?
It doesn't matter because it is statistically irrelevant. If you get robbed by a muslim you don't declare all muslims robbers and run away every time you see one.
you are totally ok but complain they have rules in place to execute the measurements. contradict yourself much?
Not all paysites/proccessors block eastern european countries you know, I don't whine about these rules. I whine about people telling everyone to block something because of their own personal experience.
no. it is not in the least.
see, the real problem is you think within the limits of your own setup. a real company doesn't have the time to deal with problem cases all the time. locking certain groups out and losing some turnover may be way more cost effective than allowing them in having to monitor all the time.
Yes thats your opionion. In case of PeakClick for example they didn't do so and most of their best performing affiliates are from Russia.
how are spammers comitting CC fraud? again you mix up apples and oranges.
Again, it doesn't matter if they are commiting CC fraud or spamming affiliate links, there are still methods to find out who is behind this like you most likely already know.
again something you believe to know, it's so cute with you.
Why mention "netplonk" then? Weren't you banned from there?
or maybe not, seeing you cannot explain any of your supposed proven points anyway.
Yeah it is quite difficult task with high person such as yourself :)
as far as Russia being part of Europe, let the Ural Mountains be a hint. even your preferred knowledge base wikipedia will tell you something about it.
Yes some parts of it are in Eastern Europe but when you talk about Eastern European countries then Russia as a whole country is not Really part of it. Thats why people usually talk about Eastern Europe and Russia seperately and I choose to do so also. If you think that I'm wrong(you probably do), then sorry for that fatal mistake. I was talking about Eastern European countries excluding Russia.
I agree that Russia is known for it's scammers/spammers though.
now after all your side tracking, are you ever going to post something on topic, with some substance, too, perhaps? providing evidence for all your claims even? surprise me!
Don't you think that you are being a little bit hypocrite?
Again no effort made to point out the real truth that I'm obviously missing.
your lacking language skills are not my problem, dear.
Lolol. I figured you say something like that about using Wikipedia, so I'll just write it out here:
many thanks for taking the time. repeating half truths doesn't make them full truths though. even if you obviosuly wish it would. the grown up world does not work that way.
But really come on, you know what I mean you just want to show how wrong I am, do I really have to debate over each word with you?
no. all you have to do is using the correct terms.
It doesn't matter because it is statistically irrelevant.
absolute nonsense.
If you get robbed by a muslim you don't declare all muslims robbers and run away every time you see one.
no? how do you know? and who made you king to decide what conclusions how ever wrong or right people get to?
but since you see yourself as some kind of authority on wrong and right, please name a case that matters. and you still didn't tell us if that not mattering case was a webmaster or a paysite owner. most likely because you just made that up, too.
Not all paysites/proccessors block eastern european countries you know
wow, old news is so exciting. when exactly did i say all of them do? what's the point of this statement?
I don't whine about these rules. I whine about people telling everyone to block something because of their own personal experience.
everyone's entitled to their opinion, no matter how wrong or right it is. even you. why would you not accept that?
Yes thats your opionion.
again, your obvious small timer existence gets in the way. it is not my opinion, it's how a real business is run. you rate the options and go for the one that according to your calculations will show the better result. part of any business calculation is risk, if you put more weight on risk, you are likely to end up not doing business with certain groups while those putting less weight on risk will engage in closer contacts.
Again, it doesn't matter if they are commiting CC fraud or spamming affiliate links,
you must be joking. god i hope you are, you cannot be THAT clueless.
Why mention "netplonk" then?
are you now trying to tell people what they can say and not?
Weren't you banned from there?
not to my knowledge, but surely you have the best sources and contacts, as always. so why don't you find out, if it's of interest to you.
Yeah it is quite difficult task with high person such as yourself :)
this PC is on the ground floor, not that high at all.
Yes some parts of it are in Eastern Europe but when you talk about Eastern European countries then Russia as a whole country is not Really part of it.
it magically moves out of Europe then? wicked.
I agree that Russia is known for it's scammers/spammers though.
isn't that a bit racist of you? especially as Russia is only 4th on that magic list you linked to.
Don't you think that you are being a little bit hypocrite?
nah, just willing to learn all about the things you say you know and have inside info on.
Handbags at 12 paces? :gaylords:
-N
Handbags at 12 paces? :gaylords:
-N
wouldn't that be sexist?
Very good point.
The legitimate use is fine, there is another thing to consider. If the illigitimate use grows will you pay for it. Or should the people using it pay for it?
Should the people stealing property be allowed to continue to steal property? If so can you please give me access to what ever you do so I can steal it please. I do not agree with it so don't ask for me to return the favor. ;)
No, people should not be able to steal someone else's copyright.
However, you can't stop it, so you have to work out how to work with it. Not suggesting I have the answer to this, but I am 100% sure censoring a perfectly legal protocol that is used for perfectly legal things isn't the answer.
Do you think censoring the internet is a good idea?
I used to like elephants... But the Dr says I'm getting better now...
Do you think censoring the internet is a good idea?
Yeah. Why wouldn't it be?
Yeah. Why wouldn't it be?
No reason at all. Aside from the whole working in porn thing.
Paul Markham
01-14-08, 09:23 AM
No, people should not be able to steal someone else's copyright.
However, you can't stop it, so you have to work out how to work with it. Not suggesting I have the answer to this, but I am 100% sure censoring a perfectly legal protocol that is used for perfectly legal things isn't the answer.
Do you think censoring the internet is a good idea?
Would they be able to identify the legal from the not legal?
I did not say whether censoring the Internet is a good thing or a bad thing. I said they have a right to censor what goes through their system based on moral and economic criteria. That's called freedom.
Does the government have a right to censor what we see? To some extent yes. If the act is illegal or damaging to the viewer.
Does the BBC have a right to censor. YES.
So do ISPs.
The question of the illegal downloads and the strain on ISPs might be answered in time. As the strain grows they will have to make a decision, invest more money and not charge the customer or invest more money and charge the customer or cap the high users or charge them for over a set limit.
No, people should not be able to steal someone else's copyright.
However, you can't stop it, so you have to work out how to work with it. Not suggesting I have the answer to this, but I am 100% sure censoring a perfectly legal protocol that is used for perfectly legal things isn't the answer.
Do you think censoring the internet is a good idea?
You are wrong. It can be stopped. Just because we dont know how, it very well can. This is also in answer to your other post that you say you cant block one type without blocking them all. That again isnt correct.
It would be very simple to do so, just by introducing a licencing system that an ISP can allow.
As to censoring the internet a good idea. Of course it is, why would you think anyone should be allowed anything they want?
You are wrong. It can be stopped. Just because we dont know how, it very well can. This is also in answer to your other post that you say you cant block one type without blocking them all. That again isnt correct.
It would be very simple to do so, just by introducing a licencing system that an ISP can allow.
As to censoring the internet a good idea. Of course it is, why would you think anyone should be allowed anything they want?
If you can work out out to censor contenent te perfect for for it goe get to it get it get it ....
We are all going to the magic castle/ let me knowl Daman xxx
strictlybroadband
01-14-08, 12:44 PM
If you can work out out to censor contenent te perfect for for it goe get to it get it get it ....
Have you been drinking?
Have you been drinking?
probably just LALA being himself in LALA LAND!
If you can work out out to censor contenent te perfect for for it goe get to it get it get it ....
We are all going to the magic castle/ let me knowl Daman xxx
Has DVTimes hacked your acount?
RomaCash
01-14-08, 05:35 PM
lol, they are trying to close thepiratebay.org for years now.
but it still keep and running.
People downloaded, download and will download stuff from torrent/any other sharing model.
The only one solution - switch off an isp connection:)
Has DVTimes hacked your acount?
:takethat: Cunt, you just gave me a coughing fit :D
No reason at all. Aside from the whole working in porn thing.
erm, working in porn makes it questionable to object to certain sorts of content? why is that?
Has DVTimes hacked your acount?
Dear me, fuck knows what happened then.
:D
erm, working in porn makes it questionable to object to certain sorts of content? why is that?
It's an industry I associate with freedom of speech and the fighting of censorship.
It's an industry I associate with freedom of speech and the fighting of censorship.
...and fighting thieveryness.
Paul Markham
01-15-08, 09:19 AM
Closing down Torrent sites is going to be tough. There are a few ways it may happen, but don't hold your breath. One would be government action on a world wide basis against copyright theft. It might happen. Another might be ISPs being clogged with people downloading for free and blocking the traffic rather than investing for people who won't spend or just charging them more. I did say they were long shots.
On another board someone came up with an idea, as a Internet Bozo I do not know if it will work, here goes. We as an industry overload the Torrents sites with free samples softcore and crap. This will piss off the users, waste their time and make payment sites more attractive.
Comments please.
Paul Markham
01-15-08, 09:58 AM
Comcast to Feel Spotlight of FCC Probe. (http://www.ynot.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=news_article&sid=43742)
The outcome of this will be interesting.
What ever the FCC come up with you can't have users costing more than they're paying. Unless they think 90% using 10% should pay for the 10% using 90%.
Paul Markham
01-15-08, 10:11 AM
There is another way to go. Win the surfer back. I have an idea and will talk to a few people at the meeting in Waltham Abbey about it. So anyone who wants to talk about anther way can come and have a beer with me.
Can't have a smoke as it's illegal. :noway2:
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