Retention question - Member feeds or bought content ?

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

or both ?

if you don't rely uniquely on archives of exclusive content

or buy in sets of web only filler content ex / non-ex

what else do you use to aid retention ?


good members area feeds don't come cheap these days,
licensing good DVDs to suit your particular paysite niche
in a full 'download & keep' format could make more sense
than using more common generic 'feeds' & steaming content

the costs of licensing a 2 hour DVD are now very competitive indeed
when compared to purchasing 2 hours of 'shot for web' semi/non-ex


discuss please . . your 2 penneth much appreciated

[JT]

Both.

I use mainly bought content, but also have feeds. Richards feeds are perfect for my sites

[psl]

'download and keep' does that mean the ability to burn the content to dvd?

[JT]

'download and keep' does that mean the ability to burn the content to dvd?

Cant all downloaded content be burnt on CD?

[psl]

Cant all downloaded content be burnt on CD?

Yea it can but it is done legally?

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

'download and keep' does that mean the ability to burn the content to dvd?

sure . . but personal use only, obviously not for redistrib

just means your members can download rather than stream the usual bonus feeds,

the content is on your servers permanently without recurring feed costs

[JT]

Yea it can but it is done legally?

Its illegal to back up files you have downloaded?

[psl]

Its illegal to back up files you have downloaded?

In my opinion burning content to dvd and cd is classed as backing up files and without consent of the copyright owner therefore it is illegal.

[Damian]

In my opinion burning content to dvd and cd is classed as backing up files and without consent of the copyright owner therefore it is illegal.

In the UK yes, but our laws are somewhat archaic. It is technically illegal to take a CD you bought, rip it, and put those tracks on your iPod. Pretty much shows how stupid the BPI is.

However, in the US it is perfectly legal to make back up copies of any media you buy or download.

The legality of any software you might need to make those backups is questionable though.

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

Damian . . u coming to the fuckfest in Jerry's rented appartment ?

[Damian]

Damian . . u coming to the fuckfest in Jerry's rented appartment ?

You bet your sweet ass. Bring lube.

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

You bet your sweet ass. Bring lube.

i'll bring gravel instead . . you deserve a dry fuck

[tdf]

ive never understood feeds and bought in content, why not make more of your own content that they come there in the 1st place to see, obviously thats going to be the biggest factor in retention?

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

ive never understood feeds and bought in content, why not make more of your own content that they come there in the 1st place to see, obviously thats going to be the biggest factor in retention?

i agree . . ideally ALL content would be exclusive

but, imo the decision would ultimately be project specific,
there are production cost implications for smaller start up paysites,
some will buy in content as a way of giving more value for money
in the interim while they increase their amounts of exclusive stuff.
imo, provided that their own exclusive stuff justifies the sign up fee
and is in the correct niche and of good quality, then i see no problem

let's take 2 hypothetical paysites & 1 hypothetical surfer,
both sites contain equal amounts of exclusive in house content
of comparable quality ( obviously there are many variables )
but both billing at the same price, and in the same niche,
and ONE of them offers an additional 10 or 20 hours
of good downloadable content ( albeit non-exclusive )
in the right niche, at no extra charge . . who's you gonna join ?

i'm really not suggesting people buy in content INSTEAD of shooting
decent exclusive stuff, but to see it more as a bonus/enhancement,
a way of adding value to your members area, way of creating archives
of content to keep your members busy well into a possible rebill

as i say, only provided the exclusive content already on the site
justifies the join, you give the surfer what they expected THEN you
hit them with hours of good bonus . . i would be inclined not to even
mention it within the tour, just a way of having a 'stickier' members area,
and at a fraction of the cost of buying in or producing exclusive.
as smaller sites grow their exclusive archives they can then reduce
the amount of non-ex . . so imo it's a time saver for smaller sites,
a better chance at retention in the early stages of business :oldman:

[tdf]

i agree . . ideally ALL content would be exclusive

but, imo the decision would ultimately be project specific,
there are production cost implications for smaller start up paysites,
some will buy in content as a way of giving more value for money
in the interim while they increase their amounts of exclusive stuff.
imo, provided that their own exclusive stuff justifies the sign up fee
and is in the correct niche and of good quality, then i see no problem

let's take 2 hypothetical paysites & 1 hypothetical surfer,
both sites contain equal amounts of exclusive in house content
of comparable quality ( obviously there are many variables )
but both billing at the same price, and in the same niche,
and ONE of them offers an additional 10 or 20 hours
of good downloadable content ( albeit non-exclusive )
in the right niche, at no extra charge . . who's you gonna join ?

i'm really not suggesting people buy in content INSTEAD of shooting
decent exclusive stuff, but to see it more as a bonus/enhancement,
a way of adding value to your members area, way of creating archives
of content to keep your members busy well into a possible rebill

as i say, only provided the exclusive content already on the site
justifies the join, you give the surfer what they expected THEN you
hit them with hours of good bonus . . i would be inclined not to even
mention it within the tour, just a way of having a 'stickier' members area,
and at a fraction of the cost of buying in or producing exclusive.
as smaller sites grow their exclusive archives they can then reduce
the amount of non-ex . . so imo it's a time saver for smaller sites,
a better chance at retention in the early stages of business :oldman:

Yeh I see your point theres never any hard and fast rules in this game, but I would say producing more exclusive content bang on niche is the only way to go. We have a lot of rich men on this board who have done exactly that, I for one intend to follow their example.

[Paul Markham]

As per usual a complex question looking for a 1 covers all answer.

The answer is "It depends on what your site is, what it has, who the customers are, how good is the content, how good is the new content and what you can afford.

Is your site in a narrow niche? For instance "Upskirts from the 50s area" Tough to buy feeds or content that will appeal.

Is it a "teen" site? Easy to buy feeds or content.

What can you afford. Is it profitable to add new content all the time?

How good is your site? Could be that content and feeds could be better than what you have, or could be worse. Even if it was shot in house a free lance shooter might be a better shooter, have better girls or just give the site some contrast to what could be a very narrow one vision interpretation of porn.

Susan Smith on a sofa is not a lot different for Susan Smith on a bed and after a few scenes unless Susan Smith is a girl in 1,000 she will become one dimensional. Assuming she's not chatting online with members.

Or it could be you're the best shooter with the best girl ever. Then why bother diluting the site. Truth is few have these sites so this is an unlikely scenario.

John this is a question with 100 answers none right and none wrong. But should you not know what your members like and would webmasters have the answer?

[Johnny Kleenexxx]

John this is a question with 100 answers none right and none wrong. But should you not know what your members like and would webmasters have the answer?

Paul, i'm only asking these questions as a cheeky attempt to veil my spam
( you should try it sometime, put up a hypothetical rather than a lecture )
as you may or may not be aware i am now working for J$TYLE$ offering
amazing deals on quality licenced DVD content (http://www.contentcommando.com) in many niches :minister:

this thread has no bearing on my personal projects whatsoever,
all my own stuff has still remained exclusive and shot in-house,
BUT i see no problem in adding good 3rd party bonus content,
particularly if it's not included as part of any pitch in the tour,
i wasn't always of that opinion, i just thought that any non-ex
content would risk diluting the effectiveness of the exclusive

if you have a site that is FULL of exclusive content, and you
subsequently add non exclusive, then the site is STILL full
with the same exclusive . . but also has bonus downloads,
if the tour is exclusive, and it then converts the surfer, then
i would keep the label "exclusive site" and the benefits
that come with it - if the tour is mixed exl & non-ex
THEN i think that an influx of multi-licenced content could
have a negative effect and negate the value of your exclusive

my simple aim is to provided value for money based on the exclusive
content & updates already available, so in effect, any extra non-ex content
should only be regarded as "bonus" - YOU yourself Paul, as i said before,
were instrumental in convincing me that i COULD shoot AND buy content,
without implying that a site was lacking in anything, but simply purely
as enhancement, provided the purchased content also satisfies members

[-HF]

blimey, 16 hours between the words content and exclusive in the same post and McMarkham's input. was the interwebs down?

[WordsforHire]

Godamit you moved that bug!

[Paul Markham]

Paul, i'm only asking these questions as a cheeky attempt to veil my spam
( you should try it sometime, put up a hypothetical rather than a lecture )
as you may or may not be aware i am now working for J$TYLE$ offering
amazing deals on quality licenced DVD content (http://www.contentcommando.com) in many niches :minister:

No I was not aware you are working for J$TYLE$. Great guy.

I knew I would win you over in the end. :geek:

HF, been on holiday and catching up. Was the info right or is it "shoot the messenger" time?

[xcite-tv]

I think the original question was rubbish..... as its obvious content is 100% dependent on the "shooter" and the only question should be "Markham or not Markham, content"

one will obviously sell and the other won't duh !!


I lOVE the fact that Kinky J and Markham are now rivals ...

Good luck KJ

[Cardinal_Sin]

As per usual a complex question looking for a 1 covers all answer.

The answer is "It depends on what your site is, what it has, who the customers are, how good is the content, how good is the new content and what you can afford.

Is your site in a narrow niche? For instance "Upskirts from the 50s area" Tough to buy feeds or content that will appeal.

Is it a "teen" site? Easy to buy feeds or content.

What can you afford. Is it profitable to add new content all the time?

How good is your site? Could be that content and feeds could be better than what you have, or could be worse. Even if it was shot in house a free lance shooter might be a better shooter, have better girls or just give the site some contrast to what could be a very narrow one vision interpretation of porn.

Susan Smith on a sofa is not a lot different for Susan Smith on a bed and after a few scenes unless Susan Smith is a girl in 1,000 she will become one dimensional. Assuming she's not chatting online with members.

Or it could be you're the best shooter with the best girl ever. Then why bother diluting the site. Truth is few have these sites so this is an unlikely scenario.

John this is a question with 100 answers none right and none wrong. But should you not know what your members like and would webmasters have the answer?



Damnfuckingblast - You've only gone and written something I agree with - Make it the last time.

[Paul Markham]

I think the original question was rubbish..... as its obvious content is 100% dependent on the "shooter" and the only question should be "Markham or not Markham, content"

one will obviously sell and the other won't duh !!

So can you explain why I buy in content for my paysite and broker on the content stores?

Or are you still full of it?

CS, does not happen that often. LOL

[-HF]

HF, been on holiday and catching up. Was the info right or is it "shoot the messenger" time?

a bit touchy, old man? :gaylords:

posts starting off with 'as per usual' usually generalise, if the poster is a Paul Markham, chances are even higher, thus rendering the likeliness of bothering to read all through them rather small, as they mostly contain general knowledge only anyway.

i trust that there'd be a rather excited reaction to anything original you'd post, so the replies you'd get would alert me accordingly. :)

[xcite-tv]

So can you explain why I buy in content for my paysite and broker on the content stores?

cos yours is shit ????.... sorry you asked for that... ...

only joking :P

Or are you still full of it?

Not full of it, but certainly sick of it

Nice to see your back after the holidays in good spirits

[Bernice]

Its a good question KJ and one I am struggling with as well. As you know KJ I used to be big league these days I am on short commons - LOL

The problem I found with exclsuive contnet especially if your working in niche is its expensive to produce, rapidly pirated into newsgroups and BBS systems that cater to the same niche and the web is damn near unpoliceable. The pirates reduce the contents value quite quickly.
For a while in the hey day of the web I could bear the costs of content production and indeed based my business approach on raising the cost of entry to my own niche by out producing just about everybody in the niche.

The strategy was sound I feel for its day but the web is a fast changing marketplace and these days I am not sure its the right strategy. Certainly today I;d be reluctant to pile £30k into a project ( thats how much my first big site cost by the way )

The problem with a niche ( especially if your an early player ) is there arent any appropriate feeds or places to get the content from. Even now if your in BDSM or transex its very hard to find good content at a cheap enough price which pretty much forces you to produce yourself.

I tried feeds and found they didndt help with member retention - these days I am buying cheap content to try that as I simply cant afford to shoot at the rates I would like. To fill all my sites with weekly updates with exclsuive content would cost near on £3k a month. Bearable when I was clocking around £200k a year - its not sustainable at the levels I am running now.

So I have a similar issue to a newbie - how to get the traffci and sign ups back with little cash to play with. My only advantage is the sites reputations and the fact that cos they are so old there are links to them from all over the place and traffic is still solid.

What i have found is below a certain threshold the site updating ( or not ) has no effect on earnings. I went through a peroid of 12 months with no new material and earnings ( after their initial drop ) never went below the base threshold ( for me thats about £45k a year by the way ). Over the past 6 months or so I have started to pick up the business again and am finding that the bought in content has no effect on retention or sales.

When your operating niche people want the material just so - no other bondage ohtographer is going to shoot in the same style I do. Thats not to say I am great - just I have my own style - its not better or anything necessarly ( though I like to think I am good ) its just my style is all. No one else is going to shoot the same.

Obviously if you are a solo girl site where the girl is free this might well be different - for niche sites like mine with models I have to pay and real costs its not viable.

The web is too new to really ever KNOW stuff - its easy to think its been here forever but in truth its less than 9 years old as a commercial proposition and the technologies that drive it are still very much in their infancy. I used to work in mainstream marketing a long time ago and some brand marketing ( pepsi for instance ) has a brand plan thats longer than the web has been in existence because they are mature markets with stability - the web just isn't like that.

Think back 10 years of the web and the changes that have taken place on it.

I dont think there are answers - you have to experiment and what works well for me might be a complete disaster for someone else. There was a time I was more confident about my abilities - arrogant might be a better word.

I built a string of successful sites - all of them saw traffic go zooming up and cash come in. Then I built a smoking site. It was the most elegant of all the sites, the content was as good as it gets and I used the same techniques as on all my other sites - Smoking Elite cost me almost £15k to build and shoot for - it made about $50 in 3 months and no matter what I did it never got any better. Needless to say its extinct now and the content dumped off.

This isnt a council of despair by the way - some people through brilliant work or just dumb luck will get a good site off and running but I dont think its something you can predict. I mean 10 years ago who would have predicted e-bay, you tube etc.

Something I have always felt which is sort of germane to this question is the fact that porn online is probably too cheap.

[WordsforHire]

You're too sensible for this board...

[Bernice]

Nah - I just have the odd moment of lucidity Words - and sometimes am bored enough to make sensible posts but its quite rare - honest :)

[Bernice]

By the way - if you think brand marketing for Pepsie at 10 year plans is unrealistic - stop and think how long Ford have been producing the Mondeo for - longer in fact than the commercial web has been here.

They will have had to plan the car from its initial version through its upgrades, its marketing angles, costs etc - adjust the plan to meet new competitors and so forth. In a mature market like cars thats all possible - there are limited numbers of competitors and the technology your competitor uses is well known to you as well ( fuel injectors, turbos, ABS brakes ).

Ford used to buy a competitors car take it to a Ford lab and strip it down to its inididual components then price up the bits based on what Ford wold have to buy them for and then they could analyse how to make their car cheaper than their competitor ( ie work out of they could do it with fewer welds - one less bolt holding each wheel on, 10 meters less of cable etc ).

Now to do all of that would take Ford almost 18 months of hard graft JUST TO ANALYSE THE COMPETITOR. Think about that in web terms - whole technologies have come and gone in those timescales and sometimes whole corporates as well.

Sorry Words - I am off on one tonite - cant seem to stop being sensible for some reason - I am off now to shout ALIEN BUM SEX out of my window stick a traffic cone through my next door neighbours letter box :)

[Paul Markham]

Nah - I just have the odd moment of lucidity Words - and sometimes am bored enough to make sensible posts but its quite rare - honest :)
You are way to sensible for this board. Using common sense and logic at the same time. :P

I've been telling everyone for years exclusive is not all that it's cracked up to be and no one listened. They just replied and quoted a list of sites with exclusive content and said it works for them so it must be right. They did not even see the real reason most of them succeeded, all they could see was exclusive content.

[WordsforHire]

Sorry Words - I am off on one tonite - cant seem to stop being sensible for some reason - I am off now to shout ALIEN BUM SEX out of my window stick a traffic cone through my next door neighbours letter box :)


That sounds more like it!

[Bernice]

Paul,
I think exclusice CAN be the be all and end all IF the niche is a seller and its truly niche AND you understand the niche well enough.

For example if there were a market that wasnt being served well and you got in first with exclusive content ( which is what I did with SM ) then it can work for you. The surfer had a choice when I entered the game of joining sites which were cookie cutters showing the same old scanned images pirated from magazines that the surfer had most likely see a million times before OR joining my site to see images in a similar style BUT completely new.
Reading all those SM mags in my youth turned out to be formative studies for me :)

By the way I NEVER pirated from magazines - I pirated from sites who were pirating from magazines in the early days - well back then everyone did cos most of us didndt have a clue what we were doing - I still dont by the way LOL

EXCLUSIVE contnet where you are making the same as anyone else - convenstional hardcore for instance probably makes no sense unless you can pump a lot of cash at it to buy the traffic and even then you might come a cropper unless theres a solid angle - Solo girl sites being an example - some girls sell ( and some dont by the way and its bloody hard to know who will and who wont ). for basic hardcore why would you ever go exclsuive - the web is flooded with it and the chance that a surfer has seen the set you have is probably slim anyway just because of the volume.

Niche itself has issues - unless you truly understand the niche you cant make cash because you have no idea what the surfer wants. I have seen that with gay and transsex sites. The accepted wisdom from non specialists in trans sites is you have to have gorgeous shemales or its a blow out - thats actually rubbish and some of the most successful sites have girls who are a bit shabby at the edges and therefore beleivable ( thats a whole topic in there to itself and I am making some general comments so wont go into the inside of trans sites ) what YOU as the webmaster find attaractive might not be what the surfer wants so you either have to KNOW that or be able to see it at least - thats why I dont do gay sites - I have no idea what a good pcture is to a gay guy. yeah I could shoot content - get it in focus, feature two nice looking guys etc but I;d not have a clue if the output is appealing.

Content is PART of the answer but in my view its seldom THE answer of itself. One of my most successful sites ever was manga where I was just buying content in - I just happened to have a nicer looking site and was better at traffic than other managa players plus I had an eye for what the surfer wanted.

When I first started making my own content it was a big risk - these days I wouldnt take it unless I was pretty sure I had a niche market more or less to myself for a bit.

[Paul Markham]

In narrow niches exclusive is the only way to go. Because content providers will not shoot enough of it and the number of sites are to small. So the surfer will of seen it in a few sites. Non exclusive simply is not an option, unless you want to con the surfer into thinking you have stuff he has not seen.

So stealing from a thief is all right? I must tell that to the judge. LOL

Why do sites go exclusive? To convince the affiliate it's the only way to go, to raise the cost of starting a site and to have enough fresh content to give affiliates so they can saturate it on free sites.

As far as the surfer is concerned he could not give a toss, unless it's stuff on 50 sites. Which make me very rich. ;) Truth is the majority of surfers want 20 minutes to jerk and then go. Very few stay on a site long enough to see everything or even a large chunk of it. Look at your members area BW burn.

Everything is a niche and I've seen teen sites and mainstream niche sites run by people who clearly do not have a clue. To sell successfully you need to understand what your buyer needs and how your product meets those needs. Or simply throw so much traffic at it somebody is sure to like it. Guess which method most adopt.

Content is never the whole answer. It is however the main answer. Assuming you know what you're doing and not adopting the "sling traffic at it and hope" method.

This thread has been side tracked enough and I'm out of it.

Bye.

[-HF]

So stealing from a thief is all right? I must tell that to the judge. LOL

where was that stated, you old fool?

[Paul Markham]

where was that stated, you old fool?
Sarcasm and irnony too much for you?

Bloody fool.

[Bernice]

Ahhhh but I am a paradox - a Marxist-Leninist Porn Webmistress -

Marx would hold that ALL property is theft - therefore by taking it away from people I am in effect a policeman :)

In my defence I only pirated in the very early days of the web when frankly the whole 'adult' web was doing it cos no one had a clue and the debate was all about public domain from published media etc etc.

As any producer knows - no one gives a shit about copyright until its your own stuff that gets nicked :) Then you start to take it seriously.

[WordsforHire]

lots of interesting and sensical stuff....
me think you need a ban! All this sensible stuff is not welcome here!

[-HF]

Sarcasm and irnony too much for you?

not really. noone will believe that you are capable of using either though.

afterall, you don't even stay out of threads where you announced your leave just 2 posts earlier. :gaylords:

[Bernice]

Well in fairness DVT left and came back 24 hours later :)

Yes words - I probably do need a ban but I dont post that much and as soon as my lazy fuck of a partner gets off her fat lesbian arse and gets some code written I'll vanish again. At the moment I cant do much till she gets her dyky twat in gear :)